Graham Allcott 0:05
Hello again welcome back, Graham Allcott Beyond Busy The show where we talk productivity, work-life balance, happiness and success, life, the universe and everything, all that stuff. And on this episode, this is episode seven,we are talking to Amy Lee. Amy is a professional clown. So just to prove my, my devotion to be on busy after my recent illness, I'm sat in the shed on a Sunday afternoon. I really like I just don't work weekends like I'm very good at not allowing work to creep into my weekends. But I've had Roscoe our little boy or weekend we've been up at the SeaLife centre today running around and all that sort of stuff. And I've just got a couple of hours where he's with his mom, I'm down in the shed and I'm recording little voice bits for you. So here we are. This is Amy Lee. If you listen to the last episode with Matt From the songs and seven podcast, you'll probably already know that Matt is Amy's fiance, and that he proposed on his podcast on songs in seven. And you'll find a link to that in the show notes to the previous episode. And you know, it's just not often that you're sat in somebody's kitchen and you're having a cup of tea. So I was chatting to Matt and just kind of preparing for the interview with him. And then Amy piped up with the information that she is a professional clown. And I see some of this and we managed to arrange an interview. And it just felt like one of those amazing little things that just falls into your lap. From the very beginning of the idea of beyond busy as this podcast, I really wanted to interview people who had unique and interesting jobs and had kind of fun job titles and stuff like that, and I think to be seven episodes in and having already interviewed an internet musician, an Olympic gold medalist, an entrepreneur, a chief executive, it kind of feels like yeah, like I've I've ticked off some some good jobs. In these first few episodes, I sat down with Amy after my interview with Matt and Amy is Jasper from the clowning duo, Mauro and Jasper. And I'm sat here with Amy. And obviously the first question to ask is do you have a business card that says clown on it? So here's Amy.
Amy Lee 2:21
Well, I have a business card with my clown face. It doesn't say clown, but the image gives it away.
Graham Allcott 2:28
I think it's worth several years of learning clowning, just to be able to have a business card as well to go to like a very serious networking event and give it out and say, Hello, this is me. unfound Yeah, yeah, you do that for me.
Unknown Speaker 2:43
Just so we go. I mean, sometimes we we do to into the world as clowns sometimes. Right.
Graham Allcott 2:50
Just walking down there.
Unknown Speaker 2:52
Yeah, yeah, just because it's interesting to do that. And sometimes People react. They're surprised or they are excited and sometimes people just completely like it's what's the big what's the big deal? We were actually just in Las Vegas? to go see shows? Yeah, cuz we're, we're writing a new show and so we went to go, you know, take some Las Vegas theatre and because my my clown partner Heather, and I had never been. And we also went with our director and dramaturg Baron who so the three of us always work together. So we went on this trip to Vegas, and we decided one day we had to go out and be clowns in Las Vegas. And at first people were what we realised was, there's so many people dressed up as characters there who want to pose for a photo with you and then have you give them money that's like their thing. There'll be like a really old school Minnie Mouse costume that you can tell us from like the age It's all worn down. And this person who's dressed as many minutes wants to get a picture with you and then have you shell over some, you know, some ones that you've that you've won at the casino. And so people were afraid that we were wanting to do that with no money, but then we were just doing our own thing. Yeah. And they were interested we were we went into the casino, and a security guard came up from behind, and instead he sort of tapped me on the shoulder from behind and said, You can't we can't have people with painted faces in here. And I turned around and we don't really have painted faces we you know, we don't have white Yeah, white face. And like the big painted on, you know,
Graham Allcott 4:52
certainly a bit of bluster I can see on Yes,
Unknown Speaker 4:54
so you know, we have rosy cheeks and we have
Graham Allcott 4:57
I'd say you'd have less less rosy cheeks than Some other people's makeup in
Unknown Speaker 5:01
Yes, it's Yeah, exactly. And so I sat but I'm just wearing beautiful makeup as my clown. And he was he looked at me and he was kind of like, huh? Yeah, I guess.
Unknown Speaker 5:19
I guess if anyone gives you trouble just
Unknown Speaker 5:22
here, I guess you're allowed to be here. Like, alright.
Graham Allcott 5:27
So when did you When did you first know that you were a clown?
Unknown Speaker 5:31
Oh gosh, that's a good question. That's a big question. Um, well, I start I actually when I was a kid, I collected clowns. Oh, did you Okay, just sort of strange. I didn't know why. It was just that was the thing that I everyone you know, I think has something that they collect. And that was my thing was clowns. robes.
Graham Allcott 5:54
Yeah, my sister's was pigs and it was just we collected that.
Amy Lee 5:58
There you go, my friends. Was turtles. Yeah, every everyone kind of has a thing and mine was clowns. I just sort of inexplicably and I had clown sheets and bedspread. But I did not think that that was going to be my future at all. And I went to Theatre School and planned on being a I think both my clown partner Heather and I both thought we'd be like doing some serious Shakespeare didn't fancy ourselves comedians. And then, Byron, who I mentioned, had studied this type of clown in high school, he went to an art school often known as Canadian clown or pachenko, clowning. Okay. And so he he had he was interested in it, and he wrote this script for two male clowns. But then he saw us do a piece together because Heather and I started working together in our we were in a collective creation programme.
Graham Allcott 7:03
So perform creating and performing work and performing at that point, more kind of straight acting work. Was it comedy what was the
Amy Lee 7:13
mostly straight acting but Heather wrote a piece for the two of us to perform at our students at our university student run Theatre Festival. That was very character based. So we we played these two sisters, and we each became these, like, I played an old man and a jaded guy who'd been out of jail and a sort of washed up lady and all these different characters in and she also played a number of really fascinating characters. And that was new for us to do something like that. But we loved it. And he saw that and went, huh. And so he approached us and said, Would you be interested in trying some clown? Yes, it may be do I Next year's festival, and we said sure, why not? At that point we were saying yes, you know, said yes to everything. I was a theatre student. So yeah, he was here and that's the
Graham Allcott 8:11
deal at that point, right? Like, yeah, I'm gonna try things out and work out and see what where you fit in the world and that's gonna be
Unknown Speaker 8:18
exactly, exactly and so we said yes and we started. We hired someone to to teach us clown His name is Pete Jarvis he's our he's known here in different places in the world is silver Elvis, he's a dresses up all in silver, and he does the sort of stop motion statue, statue here. He's incredible.
Graham Allcott 8:44
And he's not just on the street in Toronto.
Unknown Speaker 8:46
Yeah, he does it all over. I mean, he does events as well, but he's, he's an amazing man. And he studied with Richard pachenko. And so we hired him to teach us And then we just kind of kept, kept going. And we and we apply to the Fringe Festival here in Toronto, and we applied to the to the general fringe and the kids venue, we got into the kids venue, so we thought, okay, we'll do a kid show. And then the same thing happened the next two years, and then we eventually got into the general festival. So we and we had an idea for a more adult show. And our clowns were with each show gradually growing up each time,
Graham Allcott 9:31
okay.
Unknown Speaker 9:33
And so when we asked the question you asked was when did you realise you were a clown? And it was, it was a very slow realisation, I would say, because even those first few years, I was kind of like, okay, I'll keep doing this until I get my you know, my like serious acting work. And then there came a point where I've realised that this is my This is my thing.
Graham Allcott 10:02
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then do you think you can say do you think the medium of planning can be something that is delivering a serious message? Oh, yes. And then at the same time did was your realisation around that the same as you realising that Okay, now I'm taking this way more seriously than I thought and it's like, this is the thing.
Unknown Speaker 10:26
Well, it was. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we can do with our shows is when one of our goals is always to sort of find the things that are hiding in the dark corners, and and shine a light on them in society and laugh at them and, and bring them out into the open and kind of go, okay, we all have this pain or fear or worry. And let's celebrate that, that we're human and that's part of who we are and and What we feel like we can do as as, as clowns is really share those things and connect with people through that and, and make them laugh and make them feel. And that's always our goal. And I started realising too, because I did other shows, and I still do. But people like friends of mine and audience members would get a lot more excited about the clown, like our clown shows than about these other Yeah, yeah, they were like, and I really loved that. This show that you did, and I was starting to Well, this is something that is really speaking to people we all realise that because we even before we did, we did three kids shows in Toronto, and then we have this idea for them to do a show but going through puberty, hmm. Because we thought that they could approach that topic. In a way that would be really honest and hilarious,
Graham Allcott 12:03
and it was a festival a kids show as well in terms of teaching kids about, you
Unknown Speaker 12:08
know, this is an adult, this was an adult show and we we really imagined it as females who are our age will be the people who will get this show. Because it's it's a look back, we call it a hilarious look back at the best period of your life. And and, and so we did it in Winnipeg, and it went well and people, it wasn't just females or age it was it was a larger audience that was relating to it because obviously older women have also gone through this. And men have wives and sisters and mothers and and people who, you know, have this expand daughters who have this experience so we it was reaching a big Your audience than we'd anticipated. And so when we brought it to Toronto The next year, we kind of said, We workshopped it after Winnipeg, and we felt really good about it. We all kind of really loved it. And so we said, we think this is pretty great. But we've been at this for, you know, four years. Now, if this, if people don't really like this here, then maybe it's time for us to move on. Because if people don't really like this thing that we think is great, then maybe we don't get what people like. So when the show was successful, it was really exciting for us to go Okay, we think that this is funny, and other people also think this is funny. So to be able to know because I think that's such an such a huge thing as a performer or an artist or a communicator, of any type of any kind going are the thoughts that I have in my head the same ones that other people have. Yeah, completely. So that was a an interesting, interesting moment
Graham Allcott 14:10
and also is not necessarily the ones that you think are the best thoughts. Yeah, ones that the audience think of the best thoughts?
Amy Lee 14:17
Yeah,
Graham Allcott 14:17
you can, you can be roughly right. But there might be certain parts of it that are just accentuated by the audience as opposed to you and vice versa. Right. Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 14:26
Yeah. The audience teaches us so much. Like really, that's how we've learned, you know, the main we've taken a lot of clown workshops, but our main learning has been just through doing for 11 years together. So
Graham Allcott 14:43
yeah, and so your your clown do is Morrowind just Yes. How'd you come up with the names?
Unknown Speaker 14:51
Well, it's the typical clown way of coming up with your name is sort of finding yourself and discovering it. But the on exciting Well, it's not that unexciting, but it's the truth. The true true truth is that Byron, when he'd written this script for the two male clowns, had named them Morris and Jasper. Okay. And so they got transformed into Mauro and jasp. But we have since discovered that there is in Alberta, there's Jasper Park, and there is Moro peak in Jasper Park. Yeah, which we think is pretty warranted under this when
Graham Allcott 15:37
he's with his two the two names now. So you are jasp. I'm Casio. Yes, cloud alterego. How does jasp differ from you and which parts are different? In which price the same?
Unknown Speaker 15:48
Hmm. Well, so one of the things with Cloud is you kind of take what you have within you and you exaggerate it and maybe it's maybe it's the opposite or Maybe it's something that you do have. So everything comes from somewhere within me but Jasper has a lot bossier than I am she's very very bossy. Very controlling. Pretty edgy. can be quick to anger.
Graham Allcott 16:20
My edgy.
Unknown Speaker 16:21
Ha, she well she can be soft but she's she can be easily irritated by Morrow. Right okay. And by things not going her way she likes for things to to go she always has like a plan and a dream and it's very grand and she wants it to come true and she will fulfil that. So she's, she's quite
Graham Allcott 16:46
direct is a great character trait to then set up narratives between the two.
Unknown Speaker 16:51
Yes, because Morrow is is a free spirit and quite different from Jasper and likes to play and be in the moment and can be pretty destructive. Like physically, she loves to make a mess and Jasper likes things to be tidy and clean. And so there there's always there's always something to go around. I'm looking
Graham Allcott 17:17
around your house like I mean your front room is beautiful. Thank you books are very neatly stacked on the bookshelf there as well. Is this Josh's house?
Unknown Speaker 17:28
No, no, this isn't desks house desks house would be. It would be a lot girlier Okay, um, I realised we have purple accents. But jazz purple would be a lot more of a sort of pastel, very girly, purple, and blue is her blue, pink, purple. are her colours and right.
Graham Allcott 17:52
I guess what I'm trying to get to that question is like, how much do you think like jasmine? How much because you said it kind of comes from
Unknown Speaker 17:59
Yeah, everything. Well, yeah, that's a that's a good and difficult question because, you know, Jasper is me at the end of the day, but, but when I, when I put the nose on, it's true, my thought, you know, my thoughts can sort of shift a little bit and the way that I behave, does that experience of putting on the nose changes my mindset, just that habit of doing that over the years. Like, we as soon as the nose goes on, we become you know, we become the characters. That's our always our commitment. And so, how much do I think like jasp? I'm still not really answering that question. Very much and very differently, I suppose. Which is a and I think it depends on depends on the day and it depends on the moment,
Graham Allcott 18:55
or the situations in like normal life where you would love to be you'd love in a second time. Gotta put the nose on. I mean, have I just like, I'm gonna hold back? Because I made me
Unknown Speaker 19:06
right. Yes, absolutely. Jasper is much more forward in direction than
Graham Allcott 19:10
I am. So tell me about a couple of days. Oh,
Amy Lee 19:14
gosh. I mean, I was at a store the other day, and suddenly this lady was like, pushing me out of the way. And then I looked and she was shaking her head, like, how dare I stand in her way? And I paused and then I went, I didn't see you there. And she looked back and shook her head because I was like, I have to say something. This isn't you know, that's like a tiny thing, but she she was acting like I was ruining her world. And normally, I'm, I mean, I have a little bit of both in me, but, you know, the desire to right the wrongs of the world. I think I expressed more through Then probably myself, and Heather talks about that too. She, she often, especially because Morrow is very free. She has so much fun when we're out in the world being clowns, it's like this, this liberation for her. Whereas sometimes for me jasp is a lot more uptight than I am. So it's not it's not the same level of fun, but it's but it's interesting, like when we're in Las Vegas. I and we're in character jasp was when a group of guys would pass by, she would sort of cat call them a little men, right? Which I would never do or have any interest in doing but it's sort of this thing where it's like this group of guys that you know, would if they saw a beautiful girl walking by would probably say something to them, and I thought well I need to being a clown here in Las Vegas. I have to flip this on its head. And which is something that's quite fun to do because then they're not used to being called in by a clown is like a strange experience. But it was wonderful. It makes me laugh very hard.
Graham Allcott 21:19
Yeah, and I don't know loads about clowning. But I've heard Jay the comedian stutely. Do you know of him? to the UK?
Unknown Speaker 21:26
I know I know of him, but I have never heard. Yeah, so
Graham Allcott 21:29
I'm a big fan of Stuart Lee and he has a lot of his comedy is very thoughtful, and he plays a lot with the persona of stupidly versus right. You know, the characters totally versus him as a person and the differences and stuff. And I think a lot of his stuff. I've heard him talk about mediaeval clowning, and him visiting parts of the south of France, where there's like these villages where the mediaeval clowning culture was that there will be one day a year where the classic would go around the village and go around to the different sort of professions or parts of the village that would go to the baker. And sort of, you know, just take the piss out of the baker and go to the government building and take the piss out of the government. And, you know, nothing is like it's that one day where you're allowed to sort of break all the rules and tear the rulebook up and write and just be done just totally start shining that spotlight as you're saying before on to societal norms that are not quite right,
Unknown Speaker 22:28
and call out things that sometimes perhaps don't get called out and to be able to do it, you know, coming from a mean, clown is is coming from innocence, whereas like boufal is coming, you know, can be more aggressive. But the the clown observes with innocence, which is another, how they get away with saying certain things that other regular people couldn't say And when we first started, people said to us don't wear the nose don't do it. It's gonna be your lives are gonna be difficult if you take off the noses and you'll have a such an easier time
Graham Allcott 23:15
and career wise and financially or just yeah, reception or all of it and why?
Unknown Speaker 23:21
Because there is a huge stigma around clowns and and there's people who have just an idea of what clown is in their mind and they just, they've decided that they don't like it. Whether it's a bad experience they had with a birthday party clown when they were kid, whether it's you know, having gone to McDonald's and being forced to sit on Ronald's lap as a kid which I was which I remember crying. Dude crying someone sitting me on Ronald McDonald's laugh and crying because it was just like it felt no and so so basically Got awkward
Graham Allcott 24:01
birthday parties, Ronald McDonald
Unknown Speaker 24:03
and then you've got horrible horror movies. Yeah. And so all of those things contribute to a lot of negative associations with it. And I remember as I said, I had a room full of clowns as a kid and then going to a friend's birthday party. Her birthday was on Halloween. And we were pretty young must have been about 10 years old and I arrived a little bit late and they had started a scary movie night. Right. And the movie Stephen King's it was on and coming in and just a few minutes into sitting there seeing this horrifying Pennywise the clown coming up from a sewer drain with his like, you know, sharp teeth and bloody mouth and it was just off I ran out of the room. And I said you guys can keep watching but i can i i was trying For years and probably still am a little bit, I don't I don't like to watch horror movies because that experience was so had such a huge effect on me. And so I completely understand where that's coming from. But the unfortunate thing is, that is not what clown the spirit of clown truly is. It's been used for these different.
Graham Allcott 25:29
So do you feel like you're on a mission to re educate people about the art form of planning? I mean, it's like if you're a stand up comedian, people will have had positive experiences with another stand up comedian. Yeah. And there's a path already been trodden for you as a new stand up comedians. With clowning. You must have the doors already slammed and you got to push them open again. Yeah, like that's a mission for you.
Unknown Speaker 25:54
Yes, it is. It's been it's definitely become that. We have a little mini documentary on YouTube where we go to the streets in Toronto and interview at Mauro, Jasmine, talk to people about their thoughts on clown and you know in order to bring to light the way different ways that people feel about it and some people have really positive feelings and some people will come to our show just because we're clowns but that's a lot fewer than the number of people who will not come right because we are clients
Graham Allcott 26:32
and you don't need everybody to come but you need enough people to be
Unknown Speaker 26:35
Yeah, I'm here in Toronto, we've developed it at this point, you know, an audience base and and so people will come because they know of us but also we want to encourage you know, other people to go see other clowns and take it take a chance. I mean, it's hard because if you see clown that is not great clown It can be really difficult. It's like, it's like, bad improv because the performance and the performers are asking a lot of you. And so you want your audience to feel really, really safe in your hands. I think, you know, sometimes Of course challenged a little bit but that's, that's okay. challenged in a good way. But I it's it's it's tough because people don't know what they're walking into. They don't they don't get it. They don't have a frame. Most people don't have a frame for what they're about to walk into. We were doing a show last spring and and a friend of mine came with a new boyfriend, right? And she told me that she hadn't told him. She said we're gonna come see this show tonight. And he he was like what I said she's And then just before they were out for dinner just before the show, and he said, so what is this show? And she's like, Well, my friend is it's a clown duo. And he was like, Why? He was not excited about it. And then they came to the show and he loved it. Right. And I understand why those people, they were performers who had done clown who were the ones who said, Take off the nose, because you can still there are tonnes of clowns in the world who perform without the nose. We see them all the time. You know, like, I mean, Sacha Baron Cohen is a I mean, some of these characters are clowns and others are Buffon's, but no one would categorise that in their mind. Well,
Graham Allcott 28:42
that's fascinating, because I have not made that connection. But yeah,
Unknown Speaker 28:45
oh, yeah. He studied with Philip golia, who's one of the big clown teachers. Wow. And so did Helena Bonham Carter and Emma Thompson, studied with colleagues as well. They're trained as clowns. And if you watch Their performances they are clown performances but people don't. So think about that in terms of format for example
Graham Allcott 29:08
is like he has he has a an innocence lens, right? In a lot of ways. So he's shining the light on weird things a lot of the early bias up before the movie. Yeah in the UK was kind of him going to going to dinner with the upper classes and
Amy Lee 29:23
and not knowing how to hold a wine glass
Graham Allcott 29:26
like so the joke is like he's from Kazakhstan. Mm hmm. It's like we've got to teach the Kazakhstani people how to have good etiquette, right? Yes, of course, when he's there, he's shining a light on the pretension and
Unknown Speaker 29:38
Yes, exactly. And, and Ali G is also you know, a very, very innocent, not smart. So you asked a dumb question. Yes. Dumb Questions. Yeah. But he's, he's, you know, he's putting out our sounds like it, you know, just playing with assumptions that we have. Yeah. Whereas Bruno, I would say is more is Buffon because he really pushes. Right really, really pushes people in, in a different kind of way. It's not as innocent. Yeah, but no one although he was recently on Mark mer and talking about all of these things, and and they had a whole discussion on cloud versus Buffon, which was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. That's like the best podcast ever. Right? Well, it's pretty exciting because you don't tend to hear that and a
Graham Allcott 30:29
lot. Marin's WTF podcast. Yes. If for listeners who don't know that, I guess I'll put that in the show notes as well.
Unknown Speaker 30:36
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's a great podcast he talks about I mean, all of his hilarious wild, unbelievable experiences of filming his his movies and how they got some footage but this discussion on clown that they have is pretty amazing because it will reach a lot of people who probably didn't necessarily know that that's the world that he is. But he's coming from,
Graham Allcott 31:02
it'll help you down that path. And I found that a huge audience. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 31:05
exactly. But you know, he doesn't wear nose and so people, people don't make those associations. And the reason we chose to wear the nose is it's a reminder to people that we're playing, and we we think that we can get away with things that we wouldn't get away with. If we didn't have Yes, yeah. And it's always, it's always a reminder that this is a this is a game.
Graham Allcott 31:34
So play and games.
Amy Lee 31:38
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 31:40
Probably lead me quite nicely into the opposite of that, which is hard work.
Amy Lee 31:43
Yes.
Graham Allcott 31:44
That was one of the things that Matt said is just that you work incredibly hard. Yeah. So I'd love to know a bit more about that. And also the show that you've talked about before. Yeah, let's start with this. So the show that you talked about before about puberty? Yes. You took that Go to Edinburgh. Yeah, we were talking just before we press record around the economics of Edinburgh and stuff. So let's just talk a little bit about that. And then I want to get into Yeah, the less than glamorous side in terms of hardware,
Unknown Speaker 32:11
right? Yes. So Edinburgh is it was it was something that we just wanted to do. I think we felt like we needed to do it almost a bucket list obsession. Yeah,
Graham Allcott 32:26
I do I need to because I'm from the UK so I don't need to explain the Edinburgh Festival to me. Is it known worldwide is we're just saying what is the Edinburgh Fringe Festival? Isn't it? In a few words, it's the
Unknown Speaker 32:37
largest performance festival in the world and it features stand up comedy, theatre, poetry, but a different category as well. Music. Yeah, well, engineering. It goes on during the Edinburgh Festival, which has a hole there. Like there's the Theatre Festival with the big giant productions. And and there's the tattoo going on at the same time and there's the music festival and Book Festival all crazy. It's crazy The city is just madness. I've been there before to Edinburgh before. And it was a completely different experience going during the festival. It's it's pretty magical. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 33:24
So you took your show there. What year was that?
Unknown Speaker 33:26
Just this past summer just okay. Yeah. 2015 Yeah, it for the month of August, the festival, the Fringe Festival runs for a month. And you can it is possible to not do the whole month but it's not recommended. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 33:42
And most people go there and it's like you work for three or four weeks straight? Yes.
Amy Lee 33:46
We had one day off seven nights a week with one day off in the middle. We did one day the entire festival for four weeks. Yeah, we did you get mad. I mean we didn't completely mad, but it was, it was a roller coaster of emotion. Definitely because it's exhausting. Because not only are you doing your show every night, but you're promoting your show, you have to get people in the door. And of course, our best way of doing that is to go out as Morrowind because then they know what they're getting right away. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 34:26
And you're doing presumably a little bit that education along the way, right. So even with a sophisticated Edinburgh crowd, yeah. People who are there for standup or therefore Yes, Nelson. Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 34:38
Absolutely. So it's a lot of promotion. And also, you're doing interviews in a daze and trying to go see shows too, because there's incredible theatre there. And also, we were writing a blog and, you know, just keeping things going. So it's, it's it's constant. It's
Graham Allcott 34:58
well documented that it's difficult to Make money from Edinburgh. So tell me about that and the contrast of that perhaps with other French French
Unknown Speaker 35:09
yeah well so everything could just gets hiked during the festival. married. Yeah exactly as soon as you put wedding cake, wedding in front of the word cake the cake becomes 10 times the price and so you know like we we would go to the same printer every day because he you get your reviews come out and then you print them and then you staple them onto your postcards and so we go to the same guys every day and they were very hilarious locals and at one point we told them what we were paying for for rent and they just could not believe it. But it's, you know, standard to pay during the festival we shared a flat with three to four other performers and and yeah, expensive rent. Expensive theatre rent, then you've got to pay for your well we hired a publicist which is really
Graham Allcott 36:09
so theatre and so you rent the space for that hour of the performance, right?
Amy Lee 36:14
It's sort of a package. essentially you're renting for the, the time from from the theatre. who also has to like I mean, you don't just get to rent any space you have to apply to different venues because the venues curate who they're going to put in the festival you know, but they're not. Some shows they will produce if it's a big name, like we were there. It was the gilded balloons, big anniversary 30th anniversary. So they had a whole bunch of big, big names there. So they brought some of those people in right. But majority of people are paying for their for Rent. And it's a it's a it's a good chunk of change. And we are paying for our flights. And for a technician to run the show. I could I had my you know, I've got a spreadsheet or Excel spreadsheet.
Graham Allcott 37:19
What was your Did you have a sort of budget in mind that this is how much it's going to cost for the whole thing?
Unknown Speaker 37:23
Yes. Oh, yes. We were quite meticulous about that. And we worked with a producer, wonderful producer Derek to who has produced there a number of times before, he's from here, but he he's producing some shows there
Graham Allcott 37:40
this summer. Someone wants to do a show like that. What would what cost would be at the end of that spreadsheet on the total?
Unknown Speaker 37:46
I mean, really, it depends on on how you do it, but for for us it was over $30,000
Graham Allcott 37:54
right. So 15 16,000 pounds, UK Similar.
Amy Lee 38:02
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 38:05
That's big money and big money crowdfunding.
We did. Yeah, we did crowdfunding. It was the first time we've done it. Although years ago, I was just remembering this years ago because we used to have fundraisers all the time for our shows. And one year before crowdfunding, we decided to have a, we called it a couch potato fundraiser. And through PayPal, we just sent out a email to our mailing list and said, we're doing a couch potato fundraiser, so you don't have to come to the event. You can donate money. And then, you know, that was that was just before crowdfunding it. So it was our first official crowdfunding campaign and it was amazing to see the support that we got, I mean, I, I myself, do anytime. pretty much an email comes in for a crowdfunding campaign I donate because it's a little bit for me and I, it's a lot for whoever, that's the beauty of crowdfunding. But it's still amazed me every time someone donated and people that I didn't know would donate, you know, a very generous amount and and, and people that I didn't know and it was just, it was quite amazing and and we did our show here at the Toronto fringe just before we left so we use that as a fundraiser as well to raise money because there's the difference. at the Toronto fringe, we can raise money to take ourselves to the Edinburgh Fringe, which is sort of hilarious but that's how it that's how it works. It's like Canadian Alice's subsidising UK All right, so yeah, yeah, but it was really wonderful to do the show here because we had done it in Toronto in 2009. And so to come back in, in 2015, and do it was was really, because that was the first show that sort of got people to pay attention to us really here. So to come back with it was really, really fun.
So obviously after interviewing Amy, I had to go back and do the retrospective research about mortgages. And it turns out that the critically acclaimed as well as award winning and I feel like he was being a little bit modest during the interview about successes that they'd had and really the the cult following and status that Morrowind jasp has in Canada, and particularly in Toronto, and there's also some videos up on YouTube. So my personal favourites are the trailer for Mauro and jasp do puberty. That's a lot of fun. And also, there's a really good one where they just smashed plates in a garage for about a minute and a half is it is strangely satisfying. I think if you're having a bad day, that's probably a good place to, to just go and retreat to for a couple of minutes. Just, I think if you just YouTube Morrow and just smash plates, you'll find it pretty easily. You can find out more at Mauro and Jasper calm and also check them out live if you get a chance, I think I'm always really inspired by people who just work really hard to put something creative out into the world, particularly in a niche area like this where there's just a real belief in the need for the work to exist. And it's not about doing it for fame or money but you know, doing it because you really believe in the work. And I just think there's loads that entrepreneurs and leaders can learn from, from that kind of attitude. And, and I think, you know, I mean, this, this episode does not have a commercial sponsor. And I feel like the sponsor for this show should be if you come across people who are working really hard to put interesting things out into the world, support them go and help those people to do that. And I think life would be pretty boring. pretty ordinary if all those people he just gave up what they were doing and went and got jobs as accountants or something, no offence if you're an accountant, obviously. So go and support interesting people doing interesting stuff, you know, funds their crowd funds, as Amy says here, it's like if someone asks me for a crowdfunding donation, I just always give because I know what goes into that. And it's a small amount for me and loads for someone else. And I just think that's a really good attitude to take into this. So that is the commercial sponsor of this podcast is basically go and support good people doing good things and trying their hardest to put good stuff out into the world. So that's my little commercial break. So let's get back to Amy. As I said before, I was just really grateful the fact that she cleared her schedule to do this, I think she had some kind of meeting on Skype, which ended up getting getting cancelled, and both her and Matt were just so generous with their time. It was a really, really great afternoon. So without further ado, back to the rest of the interview with Amy Lee. It sounds like you've had Good critical acclaim. You've got a fan base. Yeah. And so what's what's next for you in terms of what where would you want to take it? And in terms of, is there a point where it's like, that's success for me or that's where I want to be?
Unknown Speaker 43:14
No, no, there's Oh, it's just, it's just a journey. Always. I mean, we, I am very, very grateful. And every, every time we do something, it's like, this is the best, this is the best and this is the best it will ever it will never get better than this. That's what I said after we did the Toronto fringe. We did puberty in 2009. Here, which went really well we were we got these incredible reviews in our shows were selling out and and I said, it won't. To me, it won't get better than this. But we can I just want to, I want to keep going, you know and you want to keep pushing and Seeing, you know, if you can reach more people and challenge yourself as an artist and challenge people in new ways, and
Graham Allcott 44:08
it's not about gratitude. I mean, it just seems like a surprises me that part of your mentality is it will never get better than this because Isn't there something about art and striving to want to?
Amy Lee 44:19
Yeah, of course,
Graham Allcott 44:20
I mean, gratitude for you and sort of really, like really trying to enjoy the journey rather than looking for destinations within
Unknown Speaker 44:27
I you know, of course, there is part of it that is that it, it does feel like there is, you know, sort of this, this mountain that you're climbing up, but knowing that there is no, there's no top there's no end. It's
Graham Allcott 44:45
I know that like I'm sure.
Unknown Speaker 44:49
Brad Pitt doesn't feel like he's made it. I mean, probably in some senses, he does but that's then like life is over. You know, when you hit your Call so it's just kind of about deciding for us like what is the next thing we want to do and then we and then we do that and move towards that.
Graham Allcott 45:11
Just for that reminded me of them. Elizabeth Gilbert's. Have you seen Elizabeth Gilbert's TED talk about she creative genius. It's the one. So there's two. There's one. They're both brilliant. But the two I've seen is one where it's kind of the genius and the demon and I love that one. But the other one is the one who sprang to mind which was she just written Eat, Pray Love. Yeah, come out. It'd been a huge bestseller on the world. And it was her grappling with the idea that her best work was now behind her.
Amy Lee 45:39
Right? Just that whole thing. Yes.
Graham Allcott 45:41
I probably won't write another book that will have that. Yes, sound effects on people as well
Unknown Speaker 45:46
and that and that's the thing I remember when Jennifer Lawrence won her Oscar right after she's in the press room. And someone a journalist says, Do you feel like you've peaked and she's What was she 23 when she won an Oscar And she, you know, in her wonderfully honest way was like, I hope not. Because you don't want to you don't want to feel like you, you, you know the best is behind you. But knowing that, I guess it is it is an add on striving towards constant gratitude a state of that because that is, I think, I read somewhere gratitude gives you more endorphins than anything else. And, you know, I was lucky to have incredible parents who taught me that as well just to constantly be be grateful. And of course, sometimes that's tested. Of course it is, you know, being in Edinburgh and flying in the rain and going, Oh, we have a Canadian Comedy Award adoro award and we're a big deal at home, just come see our damn show. You know, of course there's those there's lots of those moments and there's a lot of stress that comes with it, for sure. But I think, you know, trying to enjoy the journey is, is really the most important thing and knowing that we, there's a lot of things we want. There's a lot of things we want to have, and we want to make and we want to do and we want to reach more people because it's so enjoyable to to reach people. So we wanted to keep doing more of that. And so we're looking for more platforms to reach more people because and platforms to keep sort of feeding the people who want us to be Yeah, giving them something.
Graham Allcott 47:42
I think that's hugely inspiring to have that but then also to have this mentality of gratitude and that's the best thing you know, yeah. Best thing that will ever happen. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 47:52
And and it was really interesting because we, after that show, happened a couple of years ago. Are we? The next the next year, we put on another show, which also did very well. We don't, you know, I think we don't think it's as strong of a play, but that's okay. The next show we made and, and people enjoyed it. And then we were, we were doing an independent mounting of that show and we really wanted producers to come and, and we wanted people to come and pick up our show, that's like a big thing here is also because of the monetary factors factors, you know, if a theatre can pick up your show and help produce it, so you can actually, you know, make a tiny, tiny, weekly salary off of it, then that's wonderful. And so we did this show and, and none of that happened. And we kind of went well, that's disappointing. But you know, What let's just say Screw it, let's just keep let's just make things that we think are great and that our audiences will think are great. And that inspires to do and we'll just keep producing them ourselves and and then we made a show that we thought was completely ridiculous. And we called it our love show because it was just born out of love. ridiculousness. It was a, it was our cooking show, right? And it started as a 15 minute piece for a festival and then it was a 30 minute piece at a festival. And at that Festival, which is called the next stage Festival, which is part of the Toronto Toronto fringes, curated Winter Festival. It's sold, we sold out our run on the second day. And so we decided, encouraged by a friend to root, mount it at another venue who was kind of Enough to co produce it with us. And they had a kitchen, we needed it to be in the kitchen. So we did it. And we just had so much fun. And we loved it. And we made a big mess. And we made people laugh. And we laughed ourselves. And it was wonderful. And, and that's the show that we ended up. We were nominated for three door awards, which are the Toronto Theatre Awards, which I you know, of course, dreamed of winning adoro when I was younger, and we we want a door for it and for Best Performance by an Ensemble, and
Graham Allcott 50:40
that's where the cookbook came from. Right. And
Unknown Speaker 50:41
that's where the cookbook came from. So all these things came out of this show that we made, not to impress anyone but just because we it was the show that was in our hearts. Yeah. And, and I think that was a really wonderful reminder and lesson that You know, if you enjoy doing what you're doing, then I think good things will happen. That's, of course, that's not always the case. Nothing is guaranteed. But for us this show that we made just purely out of delight, not thinking about how it would be critically acclaimed or anything like that ended up, you know, yeah. Doing these wonderful things for us, but that
Graham Allcott 51:27
people can get the book online machine. It's got your heart out. Yes. Morrowind. Yes, yes.
Amy Lee 51:31
can get it on our website or Amazon. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 51:34
Yeah. We'll put a link in there as well. Great. So in terms of some of those big highs, I'm interested, what are the lows? So, you know, Matt said you work really hard and, you know, something that just came through from him is something that he really admires about you, but it's something that I think he's perhaps keen to stress because it's like, you perhaps don't think of a cloud right as working really hard having stress? Yeah. difficulty in the work. So tell me about that. The other
Unknown Speaker 52:06
Yeah. Well, I sometimes would joke to Matt that I work we work SEO hours for like peanuts, okay. Because it is, you know, it's we're very driven, I think. And, and so of course, the more you work, the more work you create, I think. And so, but there's also, things always come up, you know, there's grants, there's deadlines, there's a show to be made and produced, and there's so many things because we often self produce or doing everything. You know, we're running a website and we're, and sometimes not particularly well, because I, you know, I wasn't none of us were trained as well. web developers or you know, market marketers or,
Graham Allcott 53:05
you know, tell me about Graham Allcott on comm is a disgrace.
Unknown Speaker 53:12
Yeah, and it's it's hard to, you know, it's a lot there's just constantly things to think about. But I mean, that's part of it is like, the work that exists is the work that we create we Yeah, we just went on vacation, both Heather and I. And it was good being away and remembering that like, the world doesn't fall apart. If we leave this for a little while. I mean, we did work really, really hard. January, February, March in order to set up these two weeks where we could just leave things and everything would be okay. But, you know, there, there are so many people who've started things and and they've and they've, I don't want to say fallen apart but they've dissolved since and And we're really proud of the fact that we've made you know, we've made it to 11 years of, of doing this together and it is it's, it is constant, it's constant work. It's constant brainpower. Yeah. Because we need to do that in order to sort of stay afloat. Especially if we want this to be our, you know, become sort of our main source of, of income and our main job which, which we do, you know, if we kind of let it let it slide, then it's cert that will not no one's going to make anything happen for us. So
Graham Allcott 54:44
you got to keep spinning the plate keep you keep in the Yes. The name and the brand and everything in people's mind.
Unknown Speaker 54:50
Yes, yeah, it's, yeah, it's constant. I mean, it's funny, Heather was talking the other day about how she heard someone talking about social media. And how you become successful in social media is you have to be obsessed with it and, and naturally, she and I are not, we're not, we're not. We like to, you know, be in the moment and sit with friends and not have our phones out. And we're not really those kinds of people. And so it is
Graham Allcott 55:22
why it's one way it's not the only way. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 55:25
And we do we do have, you know, a successful and you know, it's not the numbers aren't massive, but like for a clown duo in Toronto, I think pretty good and growing, but we'll do it will sometimes do sort of concentrated bursts like when we were in Las Vegas, and they're posting a lot and in Edinburgh, having, you know, constantly blogging about what we were doing and but it's it's challenging and then You let it go and you stop having people go to your website or follow you on Twitter. So it's as much, you know, you get as much out of it as you're willing to put in. And that's, that's the tough and rewarding part about it.
Graham Allcott 56:19
I'm interested in asking you about doubt. And the idea that, particularly when you're trying to simplify likes of, you know, trade a new path, yeah, where there aren't those role models and stuff. And then, so I'm interested how you feel about doubt. But then, also, you're so reliant on each other, if one of you has more doubts than the other. And do you what kind of conversations Do you have between the two of you around? Should we are we gonna keep going with this and what's next? And
Unknown Speaker 56:47
yeah, that's a great question. And I think one of the things is that we don't that like, you know, failure is not And option like giving up has never really been on the table and
Graham Allcott 57:09
on the table, but it must be. You mean, when you say when you're the rains coming down, you're in Edinburgh, you're trying to get people to come to a show, even though it's already an award winning show. And you know, it's great, and it's trying to get the number two. So giving up isn't on the table in your minds, but it like the thought of doubt must be in your own
Unknown Speaker 57:31
doubt constantly. Constantly, of course. Yes. And that's that's I think that's sort of the balance is that there is constantly doubt but often because they're, I mean, it's the two of us, but it's also the three of us with Byron Yeah. And if someone is feeling particularly down, then usually, even if two of us are feeling down, then there's usually One who's going to prop?
Graham Allcott 58:05
See, the three of you are not all down at the same time.
Unknown Speaker 58:09
Yeah, although, you know, that said that. We were we were creating a show a few years ago, it was a 15 minute piece for this festival which is an industry festival, a theatre, industry festivals, all these people from the theatre industry, we're going to be there. And sort of our, you know, amazing to be able to do something in front of all these artistic directors from all over the country and even from around the world. And we made this piece it was a really cool challenge to create a site specific piece for this one space. Essentially, there were 10 companies, there was a lot of sort of a lottery drawn to see who would get which space in this building, not a theatre space, just a space and so We wrote this piece. And it was like then two days before sweet a dress rehearsal The next day, which a bunch of people were going to come see as well. And it's 11. It's like 11 o'clock at night, and we finally finished the script. And we read it through and we all looked at each other. And our we just sank. We just knew it was not good. And I think it was almost more reassuring, though, because my worry was like, What if someone what if one of us thinks
Graham Allcott 59:32
really good to have you think is great, and then and then one thinks it's
Unknown Speaker 59:35
terrible? When we all knew that it was terrible. And so 11 o'clock, we had to just we threw it out and started from started from scratch. So, you know, there is their horror. It was horrifying, because it was like, all these people are going to come see us. We've been trying to get them to come see our shows for years. They're going to see us See this awful, awful thing that we made. And then we ended up making something different, which we, which we loved. Coming from a plate ended up being about losing the play was a play about losing the play. And that's cool. Our best work often comes from a place of honesty and where we're where we're at as much company is about truth. It is a big thing. It absolutely is. It's like, what do we always like to say sort of what our souls need to say right now? and make a piece about that. Yeah. Because if we're honest about where we're at in our own lives, and we make something about that, then that can't be false, because it's a truth that we're experiencing and then it's probably a truth that other people are experiencing as well. Yeah. Like our our last show that we created was called moron Jasper nine to five and it was about them starting a business and the Business has a has a name, it has logo, it has shiny office, it has a, you know a slogan, it's got all these things but it, there's it doesn't have a product yet. So it's like an empty shell and that came from our feeling of, you know, having the theatre committed to us to putting on this show. And we're like, yeah, we're gonna have something amazing. And then this feeling of like having you know, it's almost that imposter fear that I think everyone has, in some sense that you look like you have everything from the outside, but on the inside, you're going oh my god, there's nothing What if it's terrible, and so that was what the, the show is about. Because I was reflecting, you know, initially, the idea was it for it to be something different. nine to five, they were Starting this business about something else, but then
Graham Allcott 1:02:03
also that's why you guys are doing right. So you are the nine to five, you're doing nine to five. Yeah. creating things that don't exist yet and trying to get it to different places. Yeah,
Amy Lee 1:02:13
exactly. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 1:02:17
And in terms of where that comes from then so what happens when you get a really bad stinking review and because it just made me think of that when you know, when you're the three, three of you did the rehearsal and realise this is bad. Surely part of the fear is getting a bad review a bad review or having bad, bad critical perception to me like how do you think about that and how do you overcome that with something as daring and unusual as planning because it's like so it's not theatre? It's not? Yeah, the medium is so different as well.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:57
I mean, I have to say We've never it'll happen but we've never had a panning reveal it will happen at some point and and, and I know that certain people have felt that way I know that there's a critic who saw a couple of our shows and didn't even write about them and, and wrote in another review, that she's, or have liked this show but had seen one of our previous shows which she'd load, which was actually quite quite sort of generous and an interesting choice not to write about, yeah, it she, she loved it so much. I mean, the fear the fear of the bad review is the fear of someone telling other people not to go see it. Right.
Graham Allcott 1:03:49
That's very logical there. Yeah, fear the bad review, that you are being personally cries for your work and your your entire soul. fingers. Right?
Unknown Speaker 1:04:00
That it's although that said, Well, I mean I we're extremely sensitive that's part of why we are clowns is we're extremely sensitive souls. So if we do read something, you know there have there have been some reviews that talk about certain things negatively and maybe you're, you know, we got it we got a three star review in Edinburgh this summer we were like, Oh my gosh, however, the review itself was fantastic. We loved it. And the reviewer talked about how the subject matter challenged her because she said sort of as a something about being like a bit of an I can't remember how she phrased it, but something along the lines of an uptight Brit being confronted with a tampon because our shows about female puberty was challenging, but that's kind of the point is that we're and so The review itself I loved because she talked about you know, that was sort of the only real negative thing she said was, was that
Graham Allcott 1:05:12
my book editor has this little joke, which is sort of along the lines of an Amazon reviews like this book changed my life. It's the most amazing thing I've ever read, you know, completely challenged every form and structure and the concept was beautiful and does it three stars right? Yeah. So there's the all three of the stars, the stars,
Unknown Speaker 1:05:30
and you can't do anything in Edinburgh. You can't do anything with three stars. Okay, well, I'm not gonna can't promote that because Oh, yeah. Even though three stars means yes.
Graham Allcott 1:05:43
Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:44
Yeah, it's an it's kind of the with with art with nine to five this show that we did, which was our first mainstage show with a with a established Theatre Company. Here. Which meant that the big papers the terms around the Globe and Mail we're going to review it and we got they do have a four star system and we got three or four stars in those shows which was you know a little hard for us at the fringe here we know we are I don't we often get five stars and so but three out of four is pretty good for the for the star in the Globe and Mail those
Graham Allcott 1:06:28
university that 75% that's a first
Unknown Speaker 1:06:30
right yeah, yeah. And also they came on the close to the opening and we're still on a no, you know, our shows are really I think all theatre is like this, but I feel like because we also use audience participation night tonight, like we can have one night that's like, we hit it out of the park and it feels amazing and there's a huge standing ovation and then we can have another night where it's like, something just wasn't quite because it's such conversation between us in the audience. So if they decide that they're not going to laugh a lot, it's hard for us. We have to we feel like we have to work a lot harder. And, you know, it's
Graham Allcott 1:07:14
the audience's fault. No,
Unknown Speaker 1:07:16
it's not, or we can have I cannot, you know, we can have a little off day. It's like, our shows are so performance driven, that, you know, maybe there's something or maybe everyone in the audience that night just feels like it's not a great show, which is also totally there. Right. You know, so, anyways, it's, it's, but it's like, it's such a public it's a it's a public report card. Yeah. You know, and so that's, that's one of, I guess, the fears that that comes is
Graham Allcott 1:07:51
which I struggle with that when you know, when I put books out and not even just, you know, putting a video on YouTube and knowing There's going to be comments on the view that in certain ways or whatever. And I think my, my tactic to that is just try and not read them as much as possible. So I'll go on, sometimes I need to go in and share the link to my book on Amazon. And I'll go and I'll find the page and I'll get the link in the URL ever. But I really try and stop my eyes from looking don't just don't read the bottom half of the internet. Right? read the comments. It's kind of my Yeah, way. But I suppose it's difficult for you and it's like you have to use that
Unknown Speaker 1:08:30
we're producing. Yeah, if I'm performing as an actor in English, because I also work as an actor. I don't read the reviews until the show is closed. Because it just, it just messes with my head. Even if someone says something really nice. Still, me through an adjective to describe. My performance is going to be in my head. Now, it's is different. It's really different when it comes to moron jazz, because we've been playing those characters for so long. I know that character really well. And so if someone describes, you know, uses some sort of adjective, it's like, I already know, I already know that. But when you're doing a regular show, you've only had you know, three weeks rehearsal if you're lucky to get to know that character, really. And so it's, it's new, it's fresh, it's it's different. You're not as secure. But playing a character for 11 years. It's a different thing. And people don't tend to rip us apart.
Graham Allcott 1:09:40
Right. So before we finish, because like I came here to interview, Matt, yes, this has been an amazing, amazing little bonus thing for me to spend some time with you as well. He talked very briefly on the interview that I did with him where I'm kind of tempted to ask you your take on his whole like career question. writing songs and seven everything else. Yeah. Can you buy that?
Amy Lee 1:10:04
Yeah, absolutely.
Graham Allcott 1:10:06
So what do you think he should do right now?
Unknown Speaker 1:10:09
It's so hard because he has worked at a job where he gets a regular paycheck for 10 years. And
Amy Lee 1:10:22
it's so hard to do freelance. And it's, it's constant. And so I think he's going between but But that said, if he is passionate about something, like the way he would work on songs in seven was so hard and he and he loved it, you know, and there were days like, there were weeks where he'd go, I don't know, I don't know if I can do this. And I would say you say this every Friday. Every Friday, we go through this. We have a big talk and I say Come Sunday night, you're gonna feel amazing and you're going to be invigorated for the week. But it's, it's hard. And, you know, for years he talked about like, he, he probably mentioned this that he would sort of say like, Well, I have to have the secure job because you are the You are the artist, you are the free spirit. And I would say,
Graham Allcott 1:11:22
ah,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:24
not true. Obviously. Yes, it's financially a lot more stable. And we probably wouldn't, we wouldn't have been able to buy a house if we were both artists. But I said to him, like, that's not that's, that's okay, though. Like I, I am okay with that. And it was hard for him to take that in. I think, because he want he wants to be able to be financially stable. And he's used to that and it's hard to let go of that and it's also Hard to go, oh I, I can do whatever I want. I am allowed to do that. And, and so now I am very much in a place of saying, I'm putting my, my everything where my mouth was all those years. You can do whatever you want. And I want him to do whatever that is and if he does choose to go back to a nine to five job, I think it's important that he knows that that's his choice. Absolutely. And if he does go back to your nine to five job, I think it's important that he keeps making art and being creative and performing. Because he needs that because he is he is a performer. He is a musician. He is a comedian like he is all those things and and knowing for myself that when When you when you are those things and you're not doing them it's not. Things are not right with the universe and, and so whatever he chooses to do he has to keep those things going. And I'm sad about the end of the podcast, he knows this and
Graham Allcott 1:13:18
we've had by the first we were in the kitchen, first of all, ending the podcast and he was like, yeah, me things I shouldn't carry on.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:27
Yeah, he I'm glad you said that because it's hard. You know, I think it's, it's hard for it's hard for him to hear me say that. Because I was away in Las Vegas when he he called you know, one of his but to me, it was one of his usual Friday. I don't know if I can do this anymore. I'm thinking of ending it and I was I was like, heading out like Heather and Byron were waiting for me and I was kind of like, I can't I can't really talk about this right now. But you know, As is, and then I listened to the podcast Sunday night, and it's like, I'm ending songs. And I was like, and I was, yeah, I was very upset. I was, um, but I understand Of course, it's it's so much, and he wants to figure out what to do next. But in my mind, I was sort of like, well keep doing songs in seven. And let's find a way, like, find a way for that to be your job, because that should be your job, because that is what you're meant to do. Oh, my gosh, a show where he's talking and being his hilarious self making amazing music. That is what like, that is the perfect job for him.
Graham Allcott 1:14:42
And the parallel is what you described with the cooking show that you guys did, which is like, you follow the thing that you think is Yeah, what you're supposed to be doing in the world. And then, you know, and then the success comes from that.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:53
Yeah. And so I think that that was my challenge with that is I kind of went why like Go have something that is the thing that you should be doing. But knowing the answer to that, which is that he was feeling a bit burnt out and he was feeling like he needed to focus on finding a job. So I, I get that I do. But, you know, I also know the feeling of having a show opening date coming up and feeling like you're absolutely not ready and that you want to run away and throw up which I did before before we open nine to five. I was throwing up in the mornings I was so nervous, which I've never done before, but it was like, I joked that it was like morning sickness for a very painful birth. So I understand that feeling, but that's why I'm sort of like I you got to push through when you hit that point. But you know, he was doing it on his own every week, which is different. I haven't had to do that. I don't have to do A show every single week. And I also have collaborators to pull me up on down. And so I think part of me felt like, because I was away in Las Vegas, like I felt almost responsible to that I wasn't because normally, I would talk through those, those tough times. And okay, what if you know, like this? What if you look at it like this week, you make your deadline for podcasts to be on Friday to, you know, finish it on Friday. And that would work, you know, this sort of talk through different different ways to get through that
Graham Allcott 1:16:35
different deadline psychology. Yeah. And we talked about constraints in the interview with him as well and just how constraints are really important to
Amy Lee 1:16:43
Yes.
Graham Allcott 1:16:44
And that's kind of got that from you with the shows.
Amy Lee 1:16:46
Yes, I'm a big I'm a big advocate for setting deadlines for yourself, because I joke that I'm a lazy person who schedules myself a very productive life
Graham Allcott 1:16:59
but Isn't that every productive person?
Unknown Speaker 1:17:03
Is it I always say, I feel like there are some people but I think they are they're rare breed who just go and create. And I'm always like, ah, who are these, like these amazing rare birds who just like, write and write. I mean, one of our very good friends as a writer who writes and writes and doesn't often have his work published or seen or, but he just writes because he, just for the process of writing for the enjoyment of it,
Graham Allcott 1:17:34
that's inspiring, but I think so many people who have productive it's basically they're the people who realise they have enough self awareness to realise that they're really lazy. And then enough creative now to put in the tactics without scheduling or something else to get over their own laziness, right? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 1:17:54
absolutely. Well, my mom says to me when I was in grade nine, I was I was at a pretty academically challenging school. And I got a role in a professional show. And my mom was sort of like, Alright, sure, you know, my parents wanted to make sure I thought I could do everything, you know, because I'd have to miss a lot of school and do schoolwork outside of it. And I said Vinci reminds me of this all the time. I said, Mom, the more I do, the more I can do.
Amy Lee 1:18:26
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 1:18:28
It's totally true. And is that again, that whole thing if you want something done, ask a busy person? Yeah, I think there's definitely a patent of that. Yeah, certainly. Lots of people I, I speak to about these issues. Yeah. So just when we finish the proposal, oh, yeah. Came live on. We're live on the podcast in terms of use the podcast. Yeah. So tell me your side of that story. Where were you when you had?
Amy Lee 1:18:52
Well, I was here I I was very funny. I came home and I had been never done anything like this before. But someone asked me to do sort of an an event for the day they were doing like Halloween event at a casino. And when I come in and be one of these characters to interact with guests, and I never done anything, I thought it'd be fun. And so I spent the day at a casino playing a headless woman. It was a it was a brilliant costume. They had it. So like, my face was all white like a zombie. And there was this backpack that I had to wear that was like a body. So it looked like I was holding my own head. Very smart. And they brought me in because I'm short. It helps with that, you know, illusion. So I spent the day doing that, and I was kind of like, what time will I be home and I was like, I'll be home, you know, nine o'clock or so. And then after after we were done, we all ended up having dinner and I was like, dinner and then I'll be home after that
Graham Allcott 1:19:59
and He's recorded the podcast as it gone online at this point. No,
Unknown Speaker 1:20:03
no, it goes online on Sunday night by midnight. Yeah. And, and so, also my cousin is coming to stay with us for the night, which he sometimes does. And he, Matt was like, What? What time is here? He says he's gonna arrive at nine, but he's usually later. Little do I know Matt sort of sweating about like wanting to make sure I'm home before my cousin gets there. So he doesn't walk in on this. So I arrived home at like, 1130 so late, and he's like, I want you to hear the podcast before it goes out. Which is not unusual. I often. Listen, give feedback. Before before it goes out. But right before we start, I go. It's 1130. So if I have feedback, what should I do? Because, yeah, because, you know, he's like, Oh, yeah, good. Wait, oh, well just listen anyway. So I start listening. And in the episode, he's like the beginning of it. He's talking for a long time, like telling jokes, but for a long time, in my mind, and so I pause it and I'm like, I feel like I feel like you could get to the song a little faster feel like the intro is a little long today. And he's like, okay, okay, sure. Yeah, you know, meanwhile, he's like, Oh my gosh, her cousin's gonna be here. It's 1130 go, yeah, gotta get this out. And like, he's getting ready to, you know, for, for my proposal. And I'm giving him feedback on his podcast. And he's like, Good point. Yeah. Okay. And I'm like, do you want to cut it now? He's like, No, no, just keep listening. And so I keep listening. And then the song comes on. And I've been asking Matt for years to write me a love song. I'm like, all I want is a love song for every birthday anniversary. That's what I want. And so it's called the Sunday It says that it's called the your love song, which is pretty perfectly titled. Because I've been saying I want I love, you know my love song for noon. So it's called your love song. And so I started to cry. And I think it's beautiful. And I have this thought of, oh my gosh, this would be a perfect moment to propose. But that's not going to happen. Like it was not going to happen in my mind. By listening to this song. It's so beautiful. And then it happens. And it turns me around and in the checks, I'm sitting in his desk chair facing his computer screen, and he's on his knee with the ring and it was amazing. I honestly could not have dreamt up a more perfect thing and being able to share it was was quite special and being able to listen to it again, which obviously I did the next day. Like my time Yeah, you know, I've listened to it. I listened to the song where you know, I try not to listen to the proposal too much. So it's not it doesn't get Old are tired, but he was very, very beautiful. And it was fun to fun to have that. And we'd, you know, we didn't know, I didn't know what that would feel like because we've been together for we've been together for 12 years before he proposed and so and I'd always kind of been a little about being getting engaged and getting married is sort of like, you know, okay do with or without, but then we started talking more about about it and it became, you know, I think I realised that I did want it. And and, you know, getting engaged was really wonderful. It was really fun. We both felt really good about it. So
Graham Allcott 1:23:40
cool. Yeah, it was beautiful. I feel like if I did not ask you about that there would have been people listen to the previous podcast, but it was very beautiful. So from your perspective, yeah.
Amy Lee 1:23:52
And my my parents he called my parents during the day to ask their permission. My dad apparently said You know, it's about time. jokingly, and my mom, my mom told me after she sort of wondered like, Oh, well, it'd be romantic. You know, it's not like, beautiful restaurant. And then after she heard it, she said it was the most romantic proposal I could imagine. So it's quite beautiful. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 1:24:18
Oh, that's so great. And I think that's just a lovely note to end the conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. clearing time just at such short notice. And you you were going with the spontaneity there in terms? Yes. During the time, I've done no research on you as well.
Unknown Speaker 1:24:34
Well, it's a wonderful conversation. A lot of fun.
Graham Allcott 1:24:37
Yes, me too. Thank you. And we'll put loads of notes in in the show notes as well. I can find your video on clowny which I now want to go and watch. Oh, yes. On the streets of Toronto. Yeah. It's pretty fun. And thank you again.
Amy Lee 1:24:51
Thank you so much.
Graham Allcott 1:24:58
So that's it for a really There was so many things in there that I really loved, particularly her perspective on, not not worrying too much about what the critics want or what you think the audience was just screw that and just make things that you think are great. And observation that often their best stuff really comes from, where they're not so focused on that sort of thing. And, you know, they really just focus on making good stuff for themselves. You know, I mean, I suppose it's very similar to one of the things that people really love Steve Jobs for right, which is, you know, his focus was never really on, like, let's think about what my competitors are doing or less thinking, think about what our customers want right now. Like his thing was always to make a thing that he thought was really great, and then educate his audience. Right. And I think that's definitely something that is a very special skill and special vision. Like if you have that. I think it's really important to just follow that through and just really focus on making stuff that you think is really great and just kind of going sometimes with your gut feel on those kind of things, I think is a really great Lesson. My reflection was on just the importance of key relationships and the the importance of that in any success. I think there's a very old cliche, which sounds very sexist now. But that whole thing of like, behind Behind every successful man is a good wife or something, something like that, which feels very sexist. As I said, I don't you know, obviously, there's things that are true of all genders, caveat, caveat and all that stuff. But I think, you know, there is definitely something to be said for really making sure that those relationships are nurtured, so that you have that that kind of sense of stability. I really got the sense from both Matt and Amy. You know, Amy was really helping Matt with some of those issues that he was facing around his career Crossroads really felt like Matt was a very constant source of support for Amy when there were difficult times or long hours, that she was working in her clouding career. And so I think, you know, it's one of those things that we perhaps don't recognise enough Don't give enough credit really is some of that support that goes on behind the scenes in relationships, and also kind of team relationships. You know, I think this is not just about relationships in a romantic sense. I think Amy talked about the sort of trio of Amy and Heather as the as the clown duo plus Byron, the director, and, you know, there's a small team of three people where all of you need to constantly be communicating with each other, and making sure that your relationships are really healthy. Because you know, you're the people who have to pick each other up and like keep each other motivated and have those very difficult conversations or points going like is this rubbish? Do we want to carry on doing this, we want to change this, and all that sort of thing. So I think, you know, there's some pretty good lessons for me as a leader in that and you know, not so not necessarily just lessons but reminders in terms of, you know, really focusing on some of the more human aspects of these things and making sure that you make time to build those relationships like away from the work sometimes because I think it's really important to just kind of get that sense of human to human rather than kind of boss to employee or collaborator to collaborate or whatever those things are. So yeah, just just a little reminder of the importance of nurturing some of those relationships. The other thing I did was, Amy mentioned the Marian podcast with Sacha Baron Cohen. I went back and listen to that, and that is, so if you enjoyed some of the sort of technical and theoretical stuff about clowning that he talks about in this, go and listen to that Sacha Baron Cohen podcast is really, really fantastic. So Mark Marin, who does WTF if you've never come across that he he's just an internet phenomenon and probably to the extent that he really does not need me to plug him anymore, but like yeah, the mapmyrun episode with Sacha Baron Cohen is really great. And if you want another mark Marron podcast to go and listen to just as a kind of intro, if you've ever come across him, he he interviews Barack Obama in his garage, he does all the time. Have you seen his garbage which is kind of, I don't think he lives anywhere that's like particularly in the middle of a big city or something. I think he's quite sort of rural and remote. So he has all these like big celebrities and famous faces and important people or trekking out to his galleries in the middle of nowhere. And yeah, I'm just finally, thanks to mark Stedman from Bloomsburg digital for producing the show. And if you want to find out more, as I said, Morrowind jasp.com You can find out more about what Amy does, and my stuff you'll find at think productive co.uk think productive, calm and others around the world. And if you want to email me Graham at think productive credit UK, and finally, you will find show notes, background info and all the previous episodes at WWW dot get beyond busy.com. So go and check out get beyond busy, calm. Please subscribe, tell your friends, all that good stuff. And we will be back onto a more normal schedule now. So the next one will be out two weeks on Thursday and then every other Thursday. After that, so until then thanks again for tuning in to beyond busy. I will see you next time.
Bye for now.