A family of 40,000 artisans, with NK Chaudhary
Graham Allcott 0:04
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Busy. The show where we talk productivity, work life balance, and how different people define happiness and success. All the big questions for work and life. My name is Graham Allcott. I'm your host for the show. And on this episode, I'm talking to a very special person, NK Chaudhary. He's the founder of Jaipur rugs, the first Indian guests that I've had on the show, and honestly one of the most inspiring leaders I've ever come across. So really, really excited to have him on the show more of which in a moment. So I hope you're okay, I hope you are well, it's feels like we're Yeah, like lockdown, again, is brewing. If you're listening to this in the north of England and lots of other places, it's already here. And yeah, I can kind of feel there's a bit of an anxiety, kind of driving people's thought processes at the moment, as people think about strapping in for it could be a very long, cold, stressful winter on lots of different fronts. So hope you're okay. And surviving that sort of imminent sense of doom that seems to be going around at the moment. If we do end up on lockdown for winter, then here's a lovely segue. Then there are some spaces still available for my six weeks to ninja online evening course. So it starts in November. Now if you go to GrahamAllcott.com, you'll see a pop up for that. And also just Oh, there you go. It'll pop up on my screen right now. GrahamAllcott.com/6weeks will get you directly to that page as well. And yeah, if you want to sign up for that, it's going to be a deliberately quite small little group. So there's going to be no more than 30 people. And I'm going to be walking people through all the stuff from my book, How to be a Productivity Ninja, and also spending a lot of time with you guys on implementing it all as well. So we'll have a whatsapp group for accountability through the weeks and making sure that people actually do the stuff that they are resolving to do as part of the programme. So if you're interested in that six weeks, and then just go to Graham allcott.com, and you find out more there. So let's get into this week's episode. So NK Chaudhary. I met back in 2012, I was on a study programme called journeys for change, touring around India, and talking to leaders and particularly social entrepreneurs. NK Chaudhary is the founder of Jaipur rugs, huge exporter of very high end beautiful luxury rugs. And his founder story is absolutely fascinating. We talked about it a bit during the episode. Basically, he kind of defied his parents and lots of other people in his life and worked across the caste system. So in India, there are various different castes of people. And there are very set expectations for what those people do, who they mix with, and so on. And the people who are deemed to be at the bottom of society used to be referred to and I think in some cases still are as the untouchables and Mr. Chaudhary made a very deliberate decision to work with those people to help them to install weaving looms, where they were so that they didn't have to travel and be exploited going to, you know, factories working 18 hour day, hour days, and they could basically work flexibly. And we toured around a few of the facilities of Jaipur rugs this year, we toured around a few different villages. And it's just absolutely remarkable what he has built, and his eloquence and just presence as a leader, just phenomenal. It's fair to say that English is not his first language. So this is a slightly difficult Listen, you might find it just takes a few minutes to just to kind of adjust to some of the pronunciations and, and to really kind of hook into this. But honestly, I would say just listen to it twice, because he is so inspiring. And I'm going to be doing some writing over the next few months particularly around heart in business and you know, kindness and leadership and a few topics around that. And it's fair to say Mr. Chaudhary is very high on my list of people to feature as a case study as part of this. So super inspiring. We reconnected a few months ago and I said I'd love you to come on and do the podcast and he said yes. So I'm just delighted and thrilled to have him on so let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Mr. NK Chaudhary
I'm here with NK Chaudhary. You're based in India in Jaipur. So first thing to say is it's early afternoon here, late afternoon there. So good afternoon Mr. Chaudhary, good afternoon. It's just such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. And just before we press record there, we were talking about how I was talking about the the government lockdown, and guidelines about home working and not commuting to offices, and you saying that you actually live on in the same compounders as where you work as well. So that that makes two of us. So let's just start by, do you want to just describe where you live and what your what your setup is around life and work,
NK Chaudhary 5:50
I live in the same campus? Open my office. And so it is much easier and easier for me to take that take my lunch? Or at the at the home? And because people are not so many people are not coming to the office. So I spend my 50 60% of time at the home. And I only come to the office when I when I need. And in last four, four months. I think it is it was totally a different journey. Very, very comfortable.
Graham Allcott 6:30
Yeah.
NK Chaudhary 6:30
And very joyful. Yeah. And
Graham Allcott 6:32
so and what's changed through the, the current COVID situation and how is that? Like, what's happening with with COVID in India, right now,
NK Chaudhary 6:43
things are getting closer and closer, day by day, after the opening of the audit log down. And government is trying very, very hard. But still it is very, very difficult to prevent the COVID
Graham Allcott 7:00
Yeah, and I suppose also in India, you have some very densely populated cities as well. Right. So you know, Delhi and Mumbai. And I've been spent a little bit of time in your part of the world to in registan, and Jaipur and places. But yeah, you have a lot of people in small spaces, which must also make it quite difficult to to contain something like this. Yes, you are. Right. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your journey then with Jaipur rugs. It honestly, I remember coming to visit you in I think it's back in 2012. And, and just coming away from that visit just so inspired by by you and the work that you've done. And what's quite interesting. We were just talking about how your house is in the same compound as the offices. And that's kind of how you started right? So you're getting into the business of hand woven rugs today, the first looms that you had were were in your house so you've always been someone who's who's worked from home and, and had and sort of combined work in home in the same location, right?
NK Chaudhary 8:12
Like, so should I say my journey? Yeah, I've got by sick my graduation exam. I started my career selling sous prom, a little soap. This my father started, I also got a permanent job in a nationalised bank, I declined the offer, as I wanted to do something of my oven, and there was very little room to grow at that soap on which I was working. So then I tried to find out my patient, who am I, what would I like to do? And I found that I'm a people person, and I love nature. So, at the time, I realised that there were very less Weaver's in India, but the export demand of carpets, but very good. So, I thought I must start this business, because I will be able to go to different villages, and I will be able to work the people who is rejected by the society by their own own family members. So 42 years ago, I took a loan of $200 from my father bought two looms, and one old cycle and I started this carpet business. After I started this business, I was in so much love with weaving in the reverse that you are used to take my lunch with the viewers. And like I was spending all my time with the viewers. But the first Chileans, which came at the time is from my own family members. In those days, the rug weavers belong to the untouchable class. And we're not given the song same socialist ending as others. So, given the strong class system in India interaction was not possible. So, I realised that time that how my family members my neighbours friends, say them, they are the untouchable, how we can judge a person by the cost and at the time I realised the hypocrisy in the society, people are something else at their home, they are something else in the office, they are something else when they are alone. And then, I was a contractor manufacturer port nine, nine years and spread my business in and around my village. And after nine years, I came to the airport to start my own export with my brother, I stayed for three years in the airport, but at the time I realised the carpet every whose demand so, to satisfy the demand, I went to Gujarat to a tribal area, the government of Gujarat by trying to develop that area because there was very high unemployment. And on the very first day when I was there, the local people told me if you go to this area, people can beat you people can kill you. They are the tribal people and they are not very welcoming to the outsider.
Graham Allcott 11:41
So this is in Gujarat, right?
NK Chaudhary 11:42
Yes. Was that? Yes. Yes. Yes.
Graham Allcott 11:44
And how far is that from Jaipur? Just for people that that that don't know the geography of India, which are to say I don't know that well either. So,
NK Chaudhary 11:53
it is 800 kilometre from the airport 100 kilometres okay. So, so, people told me that the use of node work in this area because they are not very tribals are not very welcoming for the outsider. So, I have English friend who lives in London, his name is Ella kopar. It He is known for writing the books about the painted goals of the shekhawati. So, when Wendy would we have some problem, we try to get his advice. So I asked him about Should I work in this with a tribal people or not, he suggested me that they are the most innocent people in India, the people, outside people, they exploited them very badly. So they don't trust them. So if you deal with them with love, compassion, and empathy, that will be your biggest loyal horse. So after taking his advice, I went to that tribal area. It stayed for nine years, and where I have the opportunity to train 15,000 tribal men and women in the art of rug weaving. And within a within three years, they started treating me as a guide in their mentor. When I was going to the villages, their parents were waiting me extending outside their home. At that time, I have got three daughters, and in our society, if a woman have got first three daughters, then that people in the house things and something there is something wrong. So my wife has always complaining me that family members are seeing me as the impurity. Then I asked my brain, what is the solution of this problem? And my English print eila COPPA replied me that in your society, you differentiate between the boys and girls. So boys get spoiled, and girls don't progress so much. And you are very lucky that will go the past three daughters, because women are more receptive and more efficient. So by taking his advice, me and my wife took them better than the boys and when them to study in in America, and when they were going to study in America, I told them, I enjoyed weaving and I may I may we were, so you are going to studied in America as your daughter, daughter of the viewer and never posted this, because when you study you should try to observe about the lifestyle and you must take a deep interest in the American lifestyle. So then you come back to India, you have a better understanding of the customer needs. And now you can see the impact of all my three daughters.
Graham Allcott 15:10
So your three daughters are now very instrumental in running Jaipur rugs. And it'd be good be good to just give the listeners a little bit of the chronology. So in terms of dates and times of putting this story in perspective, so you you started with looms in your house in the 1970s. Is that right?
NK Chaudhary 15:33
Yes, yes.
Graham Allcott 15:34
And then 1986 is when you started with your brother,
NK Chaudhary 15:37
right?
Graham Allcott 15:38
And then Jaipur rugs in its current form was 1999. Right? Right. And you were just saying before that you in Gujarat, you trained 15,000 people in how to weave rugs. Right? So that's over how long a period of time because that's like the such as, like a football stadium worth of people, right. So how long? How long was that? That training process? And how long would someone typically spend learning how to how to weave?
NK Chaudhary 16:10
I lived in Gujarat for nine years. So I then all these people in nine years, okay, but for a person who don't have the skill of carpet weaving, it takes one year. Okay, to be efficient. We were
Graham Allcott 16:27
I don't see you talking about your parents there. Today, you got three daughters? And it seems like there was some expectations that if you have three daughters and no sons, then something is somehow wrong. Right? That's like a that's like a cultural, a cultural idea in India. Is that is that right? Yes. Yes. And so I'm just wondering how much that was also linked to, like your parents, and expectations of what your working life would be. Because from what you're saying, before working with Weaver's working with people who are in the terms of the caste system, the untouchables, as you mentioned before, it's like, that's not seen as a thing that you should, like, aspire to, as your job, right? So you were taking quite a big risk by by making that your career and by, by working with the people that you worked with, both in terms of the caste system, and then also in terms of this tribal group in registan. Right, right. So what was the What was your motivation for? Why didn't you just want to be a banker, or a civil servant, or one of those so called more respectable professions? Because
NK Chaudhary 17:51
in the initial these days, I tried very hard to introspect. Who am I? What is my patient? So I wanted to live live a life where I could enjoy whatever I do. And I follow my passion, I follow my intuition. And I can listen, listen myself. So my criteria for the success? Is that to do what I like, what I enjoy, and where I can lose, lose myself. Yeah. And I think that is why the business model of japa became so famous, so unique, and generally so many people asked me that Mr. Chaudhry, have you thought about your business model? How do you design your business model? And I always tell them, that I never thought about business model. Still, I don't know what it means by business model. Everything came very organically, very naturally. I always enjoyed what I did.
Graham Allcott 18:52
Yeah. And let's talk about some of the numbers in the business. So a couple of things that I I read, and you can tell me, kind of things I read were a few years old as well. So I don't know whether these numbers have changed a little bit. But and I saw written somewhere that you've got over 7700 locations. Is that is that right? Yes. I mean, logistically, how do you keep track of like, do you have like a huge database with them with all with all those different looms? And what's happening on each one? And what's that? What's the logistics of something like that,
NK Chaudhary 19:29
in each area, we have go to different branches, which supervise a specific area and we are good, the branch managers quality supervisors, so they go to the looms and they are the local, local people. And everything is provided. And that we were, we were home and we have got a very good AARP system. So we have got all the real time information In our E RP system, and as I told you that we have got very good relationships with our viewers, the whole viewer community is like our our family member.
Graham Allcott 20:12
So how many Weaver's how many Weaver's right now, do you
NK Chaudhary 20:16
have working on rugs we have connected with the 40,000 viewers Wow. And there are so many weavers who only work on the very expensive time they work at their appealed. And when they have time, then they come to put the weaving. So it is a part time job for them.
Graham Allcott 20:35
I think one of the things that really struck me, so I came and visited your offices, and then we went out and did a tour into one of the villages where we saw some of the weavers actually at work. And I think a couple of things that really struck me one was the just the general culture that you've managed to create where each of those weavers felt connected to something much bigger. And I want to come back and talk about that a little bit later, as well. And I suppose the other thing that it really, really struck me was that this is in lots of these villages, a way to create employment, particularly for female members of the household who otherwise have childcare responsibilities, and lots of other things going on. Right? where it would be really difficult for them to, to entertain doing a more regular job, or is quite difficult to find jobs in in a lot of these more remote places as well. Right? And so like, do you see and sort of part of your mission as about empowerment of people who are very poor? And also empowerment of people who are women like is that is that something that was that you said was organic, but that must have been part of what was driving you to, to expand in the way that you did and create a business model in the way that you did.
NK Chaudhary 22:03
I think that if you love yourself, if you trust yourself start overflowing and reaches to the others. So I think my loan to myself, so whenever I go to the villages, the woman in the villages, they can read my face very well. So I think slowly, slowly, slowly, that things goes to the next home to the next. Next Next we less, and one day it converted into a family of the 40,000 artisan,
Graham Allcott 22:37
so you have this family of 40,000 artisans all across India are all across northern India, like how far are they spread?
NK Chaudhary 22:46
It is all across northern northern India.
Unknown Speaker 22:49
Yeah, from
NK Chaudhary 22:50
the maximum distance is 1200 kilometre.
Graham Allcott 22:56
Okay. And then the rocks themselves say you've sold rugs into 60 different countries. Yes. And what's really interesting about about this is that you have this business model which connects some of the poorest people in the world to some of the most wealthy people in the world, because your rugs to their handmade, it takes a long time to make each rug. In fact, it'd be good to just hear in a minute, just, you could just maybe just give us an example of how long a one one rug would take. And you know what would be involved in making that rug. But like, you know, this is a luxury purchase that someone's making. So you're literally connecting the poorest people in the world with the richest people in the world, which I suppose them, there might not be many, many companies or many brands that are doing that just within one brand without a supply chain, kind of without hundreds of other retailers and other people involved along the way. So should we just talk about what does it take to make one rug so just maybe give us some of the numbers, some of the how long it takes just just give us a bit of a flavour of what's involved in creating a dipole rug.
NK Chaudhary 24:07
As you know that Sega blood was the number one management guru also did a case study on jepara business model. This
Graham Allcott 24:17
is the one in the fortunate. Fortunate the bottom of the pyramid?
NK Chaudhary 24:21
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah,
Graham Allcott 24:22
yeah. I will put a link to that book in the in the show notes as well, so people can can check that out. Right. He said that
NK Chaudhary 24:30
Japanese supply chain is the most unique by connecting the poorest of the poorest with the richest of the richest by enhancing the capability at the grassroot. So, when I started this business, I have a humble belief that there are two end of this business. One way to end consumer and one is the viewer. And if I complete this circle, it makes that totality. It makes that Whole. So I started this business with this vision. And gembira is only a platform to connecting the end consumer with the reverse. And as far as that your question how many times takes a carpet? Generally, it takes it right in carpet. It also depends upon the quality number of the nodes. But still it takes three months to six months, say three months to six months, that is that one person weaving full time or they're doing that part time, not not one person. On eight feet wide carpet. There are about generally three, three women. Okay, working on on one carpets, as I told you that it is a part time job job for them. So when they are free, they weave on the carpet.
Graham Allcott 25:56
And I also read somewhere that an average carpet that you would produce would have almost a million knots. So right?
NK Chaudhary 26:05
Ah, yes, yes. 1 million notes in a big big carpet.
Graham Allcott 26:09
Yeah, you're right. Wow. So it's just yeah, and I've seen very many of these rugs up close as well. And they are just absolutely beautiful. So we'll maybe just put some links as well, just so that if you listen to this, you can just get a sense of what Jaipur rug for creating here. And I love this phrase that you had, which is we don't sell carpets, we sell a family's blessing. So can you just tell us a bit more about what does that mean? We don't sell carpets, we sell a family's blessing.
NK Chaudhary 26:44
Because I see japa edgy plate home connecting the end end consumer with the with the reverse. So our tagline is that we don't sell the carpet, we sell the family blessing. We sell the stories, we sell the experiences, and our carpet is free. Because I tell you one thing that Raj sisodia wrote the book, like it published last year, the book is all about healing organisation. So he writes in his book about Jeopardy, that that how Jeopardy business for the healing society. And by healing the society, it is also healing the customer. Because that due to jabber a business model, that dignity of the weavers, when many times and they were income became two, three times more what they are earning before they have a better life. And now they are so open, that it transformed their life, they are getting the dignity, they are getting the money. And it is a very big change in their life. And from last 10 years, I've seen thousands of thousands of people each year come to see them to spend a lot of time time with them. And I have seen thousands of people coming throughout the world, they say this is the best experience in our life. This is the best experience in our one month visit in in India. And we are getting also so many emails, communications from our end consumer that when they hear the story of the carpet, they bought out that this carpet has transformed their life, the appeal enlighten the appeal joy pool,
Graham Allcott 28:49
and it feels like storytelling is a very important component in the business. Right? So on the one hand, yeah, you can look at it as you know, you're producing these carpets and then you're selling these carpets. But as you're saying that there before, it's like actually what you're really selling is this sense of healing and this connection between the weavers themselves and the end consumers themselves. And you've used storytelling a lot within within Jaipur roads as a business. So one of the things that you do quite early on, I think was starting to bring a lot of the first Weaver's that you had into the head office to kind of see, to tell them the story that actually what you're working on here is not just one carpet but like it's part of this much bigger company and this this much bigger picture. Right. So just tell us about how you went about doing that because again, you know this is not there's there's a lot of companies who would work in the same industry as you. And they would either just use, you know, factory manufacturing, or a lot of the jobs would be quite exploitative. They'd be on very low wages, and they'd be taking those people into factories to work long hours in factories, whereas your approach is very different. Because it's very person centric, like people who weaving rugs in their own homes. And then I guess the problem with that can be that it becomes quite a almost like a remote experience. So yes, I'm working on this carpet, and then it gets sent away, but I don't get to see that bigger picture. So why did you think that was an important thing? early on? And what was what were the sort of challenges in making that happen? Did you find that some of the weavers were, you know, not happy about being asked to go to the head office? Or was it was it a difficult sell, because it would obviously have just been a very different kind of thing to ask people to do than what people are maybe used to doing? I think when I started this business, I was I was a very innocent person. And all the time I was talking like a giant, and I was enjoying the human connections at the at the grassroot
NK Chaudhary 31:25
you're enjoying the water when I was enjoying human connections,
Graham Allcott 31:30
human connections, okay. Yeah.
NK Chaudhary 31:32
Yes, with with my viewers. So when some customer was coming, some outsider people were coming, I was talking about my relationship with them. And slowly, slowly, I realised that people who come globally, they realise that that story, what I'm telling to them, is very authentic. And, and driven by the innocency, and 10. year before we ask all our customers, people come in throughout the world, that you can go to meet the reverse, and Went, went to see the viewers, they saw the more better things, what we were telling our customers to our people. So I think that authenticity, and that innocency in business, is the main part of the story, story, storytelling,
Graham Allcott 32:29
I think there's so much. There's so many things in business that are quite inauthentic, right, so people tell lots of stories about how environmentally friendly they're going to be, or about the diversity of their organisation, or about what the promise of that brand is, and all these kind of things. And often they can be quite, you know, quite quite fake, and quite inauthentic. But I think what's interesting is that I think you recognised quite early on that you just have this very authentic story to tell. And actually, that's, that's a big part of the brand, isn't it? It's like selling that to people who have the money to buy luxury goods is like a really big part of the success of tribal rugs. Right? I think that
NK Chaudhary 33:24
because this story of the authenticity, and I always talk about business is all about connecting the human beings by the by the heart. So I see a very big future, that end consumer interior designers, architect, and Indian designer, and our viewers, they are co creating together. Because when we connect with the people, then that creativity of everybody in the system comes together and create something new. And as the success or power project manager, aha, that designs created by the viewers. Good Suman global Arts in last 70 years.
Graham Allcott 34:17
So this is a thing where what you've started doing is saying to the weavers, okay, rather than just weaving the carpet, like do you have ideas yourselves about the designs and there was one I saw in a video which was to do with was it called disharmony or something. And the idea was that there was some weavers working on this carpet and then they weren't getting along. And then you could see like this, almost like the story of them being in disagreement with each other on one end of the carpet where lots of the bits of weaving were kind of not linking up properly and then later on in the carpet, you can see that it's all much more harmonious and you kind of see that journey. Have them from, like, disharmony to harmony. And like that was their design. Yes. To create that, so, so again, you know, using that, and storytelling so that the weavers are actually involved in the design. And is that so again, was that something that just came from, like conversations that you're having with them? Or was that your vision? Like, how did that? How did that come about. And when you first started doing that,
NK Chaudhary 35:24
there were three, three men. And when they started their own designs, they were not very along with each other. But slowly, slowly, they started communicating with each each other. And Lt. Ultimately, they were working together. And design were very symmetry. So when we saw the carpet first, that we realised this is not going to sell. This is that biggest mistake, which I had never seen before. But when we started telling the story to our customer, that it became so famous, and also won the award. And now we inspire inspired this design, we made so many designs from this, from the experience. And and those are the best selling designs.
Graham Allcott 36:19
Wow, that's cool. And you also have a you have a loom in your head office. Right. So when people either Weaver's or foreign visitors or employees when they first come into the office, everybody, like ties are not in this loom. So they're like over a long period of time, everybody creates this, this one carpet, right? So, like, How long has that been? Like going on for? This is from last
NK Chaudhary 36:48
six years? Okay? My daughter, Kavita, she's a designer. And she's very creative. So she do so many things like that.
Graham Allcott 37:00
Hmm. And how long will it take to finish?
NK Chaudhary 37:02
It takes? Yes.
Graham Allcott 37:05
And it's like part of the story that it will never finish. Like it's it's always nicer if it's like a constantly developing thing, right? Like it would be it would feel like sad to get to the end almost.
NK Chaudhary 37:18
Yes, yes, it will continue. And I want to tell you a very interesting story. That one day, that textile minister of India, central textile minister, yeah, who came to see our business model. And we took her to the loom. And she started weaving weaving on the room.
Graham Allcott 37:43
So you've had, you've had government dignitaries, you've probably had people from, from very many countries, and all kinds of different people all working on this same carpet. Yes. That's cool. Let's, let's talk a little bit more about you. And some of the things that drive you there. When we spoke a little while ago, you were saying to me that you feel like you have three enemies? Yes. And you're talking about desires that are unsatisfied? Yes. Your ego? Yes. And I'm consciousness. Yes. And there's something that I wrote down and was really thinking a lot about. And so I'd love to just explore that a bit more. So these are you talking at the beginning about how early on in your career, you realise that it was important for you to do a lot of work on yourself and, and reflection on yourself? So these three enemies? Is this like, a thing that you've discovered more recently? Or was this something that you discovered this at the start of your career like, I'm really interested to know how you how you came across this, this philosophy or idea
NK Chaudhary 38:57
then I started this business 42 year before the purpose of this business is to No, no myself, in India, the people on the journey of self reliance and go to Himalayas, go to Assam go to temple, but I decided that I will no to go to any Ostrom. I will start business and due to my karmas due to my excellence, I will know who am I so I was reading a lot of bu thinking so much. And eight year before I realised that there is something wrong. I'm doing the same thing again and again. And I realised that I am in the autopilot mode, and I am driven by my habits. I'm the slave of my habits. And then I started to introspect that how I came out of my peaks mindset, my hobbies, and then I realised that I go these three enemies and I also realised that I was driven by unconsciousness. So slowly, slowly, early in the morning, I started introspecting that what I did yesterday, why I did it, and I found that I was very reactive person, I have got so much negativity, I was driven by unconsciousness, AB it's, and slowly, slowly, by the practice I started I, I was able to see myself, my actions, my own own thinking. And I found that slowly, slowly, I can see the things I was able to see the things which I was not able to see before. And I can see who changed in my personal life and in my business decisions. And I want to tell you one thing, one example, that one day I was sitting in my office and by thinking that I'm not getting the people who are aligned to the values of the upper reservoir aligned to the purpose of that the EPA, and in this one came to my mind, and I changed the name of my HR department. And the new name was search for divine soul to search
Graham Allcott 41:11
for divine soul. Yes, yes. Wow. So the HR department is still called the search for divine soul. Yes. Yeah.
NK Chaudhary 41:21
So I called out my HR people and told tell them that from today, we are not going to take the interview of the, of their experience of their clothes of their AIDS. Now, we must find a person with the patient who is on the higher end of the truth is, we must only take the people who are that inner, inner journey. And thank God, within last three years, we have got so many people who is in the journey of enlightenment, and that their work is so excellent. And I'm so they are creating a great future, not only for the Buddha, but for the customer, for our viewers, and for the whole country.
Graham Allcott 42:11
So you're looking for people when you hire who have this journey towards enlightenment, which I'm guessing part of the way that you would find that is to look for certain values. But I'm just curious, how do you do that in a job interview like in a, in a recruitment process?
NK Chaudhary 42:33
Yes.
Graham Allcott 42:34
How do you find people that you feel are more enlightened are on that journey? I want
NK Chaudhary 42:41
to give you one, one example, that so many people came, and they smart people, they read on our website, and they read about yopu rocks. And they said that we want to work with the society. And we want to do the noble cause, and we want to help the others, and some spiritual and religious people come comes. And they say that we want to meditate the other other other people, we want to increase in the consciousness of the other other people. So the one thing which I asked them that, tell me about your inner inner journey, I know you, you have a great thinking about doing the good for the society. But how are you doing good for yourself? And then I can understand the person is, is on that journey of truth or not?
Graham Allcott 43:41
And what's your experience in terms of how people find that? So do you think people do you think there are just people who are much more self reflective than other people? Or are there particular practical tools or practices like meditation or yoga or something like that, that you think generally lead people more towards? That
NK Chaudhary 44:09
kind of self reflective thinking? I think their biggest thing is that they are very self reflective. They think about them themselves. And I think it gives them a chance to see what they are doing. So they can always avoid themselves from doing the wrong things for the wrong wrong regions. And all these people. They don't do that things. This don't add that. Add that add the values, and they are very highly pocus. And they always believe in that deep work. And that makes a difference.
Graham Allcott 44:46
And when you yourself, spend a lot of time on your own journey to enlightenment and you talked before about spending a lot of time in the mornings thinking about yourself and Thinking about some of the enemies within yourself and so on. Like, what does that look like? Are you do you meditate? Do you just sit quietly? Do you do journal? Like, what is that? What does that look like when you're spending that time? Or is it just, it's in the moments where you're walking or eating or whatever? Like, do you have a particular sort of practice yourself around those kind of things?
NK Chaudhary 45:22
Yes. Why? Why did I realise in last 80 years that if I want to transform myself, all the spiritual practices is like the stairs. But that is not the destination, that destination only comes from that understanding the understanding about the self. So I try to develop my understanding that what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and I want to give an example, at the stage where I am today, I realised that we create a false palsar identity, into the business into the society, into the family, that I'm this I'm this and idolised for myself. It means nothing, you only create that false identity. When you don't know yourself. If you know yourself, you need not to have that outside recognization start understanding yourself, and you have a deeper understanding, then you need no to get the praise, or any outside recognization. It comes from inside. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 46:30
Can we talk really quickly about those three enemies that you were telling me about before so desires, ego and unconsciousness?
NK Chaudhary 46:38
Yes, because then this veil idealise these three enemies within me, I found that the, what I'm doing, I want money, I want pain, and, and why and I'm in a hurry to get the money and the pain. And it is creating me it is putting me in the autopilot mode. And the second thing about the ego, the pulse image of myself, I am this I'm that I'm a good person, I have this, I have this. So I'm creating my identity on in different ways. And that is your ego. And the other thing is that consciousness that when I start something at the time, I was so blind, and unconscious, that at the time, I don't know why I'm doing it. I'm racing without knowing why I'm racing without knowing the destination. So I think when I started taming these three enemies within me, it makes a lot of difference.
Graham Allcott 47:42
Yeah. How do you detach? ego? Or how do you separate ego from identity? Because before there you were talking about the ego of I'm helping people and compassionate and doing good. And these are often in a Western viewpoint, things that we think about as being detached from ego because we tend to think of ego in the West as being about selfishness, right, and self centeredness. So how do you kind of recognise which bits of your identity and your sort of definition of view is ego versus amateur is the real you? I think, when I started realising about myself, I found that the, my love to myself is the most important thing. And up to up to now, I was searching myself outside the outer outer world. So what I think that the
NK Chaudhary 48:46
more you come closer to your yourself, then you can see that relationship in the outside world, the connection in the outside world, actually don't adjust. The only connection which we can make is with our selves. And I also think that the, when we starting knowing ourselves, the LAO gratitudes start with a nurse, and one day start overflowing. And when you start overflowing, it reaches to the other. So it is a natural phenomenon. It is a very organic and very scientific thing.
Graham Allcott 49:33
And I think there's probably lots of people listening to this who would find it quite hard to have that level of self compassion. I think, you know, most people that I work with have some kind of, you know, very, very common or favourite ways of of criticising themselves or beating themselves up or being critical or negative thinking You know, towards yourself, do you? Are there some ways that you can suggest for managers leaders to help to instil some of these qualities in other people too? So, you know, what, what can you do in the culture of organisations to help people to be more in touch with who they are?
NK Chaudhary 50:25
I think it is a great, great question that I have seen that ministers and people at the top, I found that the most of the people is driven by the inferiority complex. And when we come in the inferiority complex, we compare ourselves with the other other person, an inferiority complex creates fear, hmm. So, we want more and more and more, and we see ourselves in the eyes, eyes of the others, which never can satisfy.
Graham Allcott 51:06
And this is now the classic thing of the Instagram, you know, comparing all of your own worst negative thoughts of, of yourself with everybody's idealised versions that you see online of themselves, right. So it's like, even worst,
NK Chaudhary 51:26
because at the time, we are driven by the fear, and do due to the fear. We, we try to collect so many things. We want to create the crowd. And so negativity, frustration, depressions, so many things starts from the fear,
Graham Allcott 51:48
I'd love to I'd love you to say more about that element of fear, and maybe a bit more about how people can address that in themselves overcome that in themselves. And just think about it some more, I feel like it's something that is quite neglected, often. Yes. And
NK Chaudhary 52:05
yes, just generally, you are, you are, you are very right that the last week, I have to three seasons with so many very good colleges in India. And when I talked about this inferiority complex, the students become very serious and they send they start sending me the message, that it is changing, changing their life before they don't know, I told them that we live in a world, which is not true. There are so many things which don't exist, but still we still we believe, and we try to achieve them. And in my whole life, I worked with that educated people. And always those people put me upside down, instead of developing the understanding, they became very manipulative, they became very cunning, I always say that knowledge is power, but knowledge gained. Without Plexus develop ego, sometimes the practice nurse have the skills without having the knowledge. So I think due to that, isn't due to so many books, they think that I met knowledgeable, and to knowing about the light, and to knowing the light makes a big difference. So the whole world is confused, they are knowing about the light, and they think this is the real world. It is only a knowledge. But knowing the light is that real, real thing. So I found when and is driven by the npG complex, is totally away from the understanding, understanding of his work. In the in the business, I have found most of the people still in our business, they are totally away. They don't understand the people in our business, they don't understand the processes. They don't understand the product and without the understanding, they are making some big decisions. So actually, it is destroying their life and the business and the society.
Graham Allcott 54:31
So having that knowledge and then not following that up with practice is that we are saying yes, that you there's a lot of people who they develop knowledge either about themselves or about other things and then don't apply that knowledge into practice.
NK Chaudhary 54:51
Right. So I want to tell you one thing that the what I learned in my life that the the people who is driven by the mind, he only uses his mind, the mind always creates the problem, we don't exist, the mind creates is more problem bigger and the mind is a big problem. So complicated, it never can be solved, the solution only comes from the heart. So, if you are not driven by the heart and the heart is if the heart is not going to the hand, it means all the time our mind are working, because our heart and hence we have closed them. So we are creating is when we try to solve the problem to the mind, actually, we are complicating the problems.
Graham Allcott 55:46
So, again, I suppose the the obvious question for people listening to this is, I'm sure lots of people will be listening to this thinking, yes, I want to, I want to follow my heart more, I want to think about
NK Chaudhary 56:01
how I can solve problems with with the heart rather than the mind. And, and definitely relating to this idea that often the mind can complicate things. And I'm sure that feels quite alien to lots of people. So are there some other some ways that you think people can help themselves to be more heart based in their, in their thinking in their decisions in their actions, I think that it is a matter of self awareness. So how we can work on our self awareness, because due to unconsciousness, we have a who's blind is around around us. So I think self awareness is the answer. I want to give you one example, then I have seen the people who is meditating for very long time. And when I interact with them, I found that when they made meditate, they have a different meaning. And when they came out of after meditation, they have a different meaning. Meditation means your you must work as the meditation. So your work became your meditation. So I think self awareness is the answer,
Graham Allcott 57:24
saying meditation doesn't help because it becomes almost like a job in itself. Is that what you're saying?
NK Chaudhary 57:30
No, I'm saying that. Meditation is like, it is like the stair, it will help you. Okay, you're at your destination, but meditation with understanding that makes a difference, that when we made it is how, after I came out of the meditation, how awareness I have in my everything I do in the daytime. So I think that should be mixed with the meditation.
Graham Allcott 58:02
Okay, so when you come out of the meditation, then you can sometimes when I've done meditation and yoga, sometimes you find that then you're just, I don't know, travelling in a car or, or just making a cup of tea or something, and you feel more aware of those really simple things more after you've, after you've recently done something like meditation than you would just if you just got up and started your day and, and whatever. So do you think that is that part of it is recognising not just meditation, but then also trying trying to be more mindful in each and every moment, rather than just saying, I'll be mindful during these moments of meditation, but then I'll just go on and live the rest of my life and be busy. But I think this is perfect. That awareness, alertness, before I start anything, how alert I am, how aware I am, that makes the difference. At I think, the practising the awareness, the printings in the alertness, it really make a big difference, what you will be doing next,
NK Chaudhary 59:14
that is the real meaning of meditation.
Graham Allcott 59:16
That's fascinating. And I just think there's so much wisdom, I remember spending some time with you when I came to visit, and we were talking about it. So a similar theme to what you were talking about towards the beginning of this conversation actually around business being a very useful tool for self actualization, and, you know, using business as the place to learn about yourself rather than sitting in a yoga ashram or you know, travelling the Himalayas or some of the other examples that you mentioned. I remember thinking, I just think there's so much. So much wisdom here. Obviously, you've you've had a very long and very successful career with jaipal. rugs. I just wonder before we finished because we're just about out of time. And are there any, any particular kind of key philosophies that you have, or key learnings from your career that we've not talked about? so far? That would just be a nice one to kind of end the episode with and, you know, just in particular thinking about? Yeah, I would love to just kind of hear a little bit more about how you how you make yourself successful and what what does productivity mean to you in the work that you do as well?
NK Chaudhary 1:00:46
Should I end by sharing a story when when I was in colas, one day, my business Headmistress, and Professor came to class and asked a roll number. And that was roll number, but mine and he asked me to stand. And he was a very strict professor. And I started thinking that why he asked me to stain because I was a very disciplined student. And I thought that I have done no mischievousness, why he's asking me to stand. And then he took out a test copy in his hand. And so to everyone in the class, and told them see the answer, this boy has written the kusile was widely the definition of business. And what I replied, his business is next to LAO, at the creator and preserver of civilization, and the prophets. And this boy became a unique businessman one day.
Graham Allcott 1:01:56
That I mean, that's just that leaves me with so many more questions about how I just have to ask you before we finish them. So how did you Why do you think you had that kind of perspective? at such a young age? Because this is when you're in college? This is before the business?
NK Chaudhary 1:02:12
Yeah. Why? Why? Why did you have that kind of that kind of perspective at such a young age? Do you think? I think it is, it is very, very, very organic. But what I remember, in my young young days, or when I was a child, that I realised that I live in a family, I live in a society where the people are driven, as I told by the greed and the desires, and they were doing the wrong things, for the wrong reasons. And suffering very badly, too. I can see it very clearly, since my child childhood. So I think then I took that, maybe I took a different path due to that lending,
Graham Allcott 1:03:01
huh, that's cool. And I know you spent quite a bit of time yourself in in the US and the UK, and very many other places around the world. There's often this, this sense of cultural difference between East and West. And I wonder if there's anything that you can tell us about how from an more Eastern perspective, you view the West? And maybe just we'll make this like the final question, but is there anything that you would really recommend that people in the West do differently things that perhaps you don't understand or feel like feel that we're getting wrong here in the West? I'd love to just finish with with that as a question what what what do you really question when you come to the UK in the US and things that you think that perhaps we should be doing differently here? I think
NK Chaudhary 1:03:58
that Western world, there are so many innovation, so many things happen in the innovation world, but I think they missed one thing, which is them themselves. What I feel that if he that low is the only criteria for the sustainability to what you will be do any innovation, anything which we do loves would be the criteria and that will make the difference.
Graham Allcott 1:04:30
Yeah, well, maybe that's just a perfect place to finish. I'm immediately thinking about all the different ways in which that could manifest itself I think that's probably just a perfect place to finish up. And we'll obviously put a link to jaipal rugs in the show notes here at get beyond busy.com. So if you want to check out a bit more about some of the some of the other things that jaipal rugs Doing some of that initiative around storytelling, we'll put some photos of some of the actual rugs on there as well. And Mr. charges, it's just been a huge pleasure having you on this podcast. And is there anything that you want to particularly draw people's attention to, as we finish either ways to connect with you or just other things that you think people should check out? and anything else that you want to let us know about? Before we finish?
NK Chaudhary 1:05:28
My last thing is that just be yourself?
Graham Allcott 1:05:31
Perfect. knowing yourself and then being yourself, I think is, is just a really strong message from this podcast. So thank you for being on beyond busy. Thank you.
Wow, Have you enjoyed that one, I honestly just don't have a lot to say. Other than thanks to Mr. Chowdhury for his time, and really looking forward to working with him again, over the next few months.
As I said, if you would like to find out more about the previous episodes, we have the show notes at get beyond busy.com to getbeyondbusy.com. And this episode is sponsored by Think Productive. So if you're interested in productivity workshops and training for your business, then just go to thinkproductive.com. And you'll find out more there. Quick reminder, again, that there are tickets for my Six Weeks to Ninja online course starting in November 2020. Come and be locked down with me in the evenings and boost your productivity. And we will help each other through this long winter. So Graham allcott.com, forward slash six weeks, and you can find out more there. I also did a big mail out last week. So I'm I'm doing this weekly email list called rev up for the week. If you want to sign up for that, just go to grahamallcott.com. And on any of the pages there, there's a little signup form. And Rev Up For the Week is my weekly email where the idea is I put a positive thoughtful thing in your inbox every Sunday ready for the week ahead. And I really just felt compelled to write last week's one about the Social Dilemma on Netflix, which I just watched. And, you know, it was interesting as I had such a strong response of people emailing me back and telling me about how they dealt with social media, how they dealt with this addiction to devices and stuff that just seems to be getting worse. And the whole thing with a social dilemma is it feels very dystopian, but it also feels like a bit of a moment, it feels like I didn't know there was a lot of stuff, I'd read john Lana's book and, you know, big fan of his work. And I had thought about a lot of the stuff that was in this documentary, and I actually wasn't going to watch it been kind of recommended on my feed a couple of times on Netflix and, and sort of turned it down. I don't need to watch that. But then when you do just the way they put the argument across and the way they use this particular narrative device of actors pretending to be the algorithm of what to show you to sort of keep you hooked in. It really made me think, oh, my god, there's there's something really serious here that if we're not careful, is actually going to just destroy us all. You know, I mean, it was very difficult to write a rev up positive piece. For my mailing list. I think I did a pretty good job of it. But yeah, it was it was a difficult one to make positive. That's for sure. And what was interesting was just how strong the response was, and people just emailing me back. So if you did email me back, I'm still working through the replies and I will reply to you, as I always do to people who reply to my mailing list emails, just always, not always the next day after I've received it. Sometimes there's a little backlog. But yeah, so if you want to be part of that, we'll we'll actually put that mailing list one up on the blog somewhere, maybe on my medium or on grahamallcott.com somewhere so you can have a read. But yeah, sign up to my rubber for the week mailing list, Grandma co.com. And you'll get the future ones. So that is it for this week. Thanks to mark Steadman, my producer on the show, and podiumed for hosting, and we'll be back next week with another episode. We're now weekly podcast. So spread the word like subscribe, all that good stuff. I'll see you next week.
Take care. Bye for now.