Beyond Busy #88 with Raymond Sagayam
Graham Allcott 0:04
You're listening to beyond busy, the show where we talk productivity, work life balance, defining happiness and success. My name is Graham Allcott. I'm your host for the show. And on this episode I'm talking to Ray Sagayam. Ray is a senior leader in an asset management company so works in the city, and just has some really fascinating perspectives on resilience on money on success on dealing with people just so many really carefully considered bits of wisdom in this episode, I think you're gonna love it. So just quickly before we get into it a couple of quick messages. If you're a Beyond Busy Keno, and you're listening to this in the first day or serve release, you still have time to sign up for our free webinar on "How to Beat Procrastination... Tomorrow." It's on Friday the 16th of October 2pm. You'll find details if you go to thinkproductive co.uk click on the free webinars tab. And then you'll be able to find access to our free webinar on procrastination. If you want to get involved with that, check it out. And also there's a few other free webinars that are underneath that are happening over the next couple of months. So go and check them out. thinkproductive.co.uk and you'll see the free webinars tab at the top. Also, just to let you know, there's still tickets available for my Six Weeks to Ninja live evening course we're starting in November. So go to grahamallcott.com and go to find details for that. It's basically all of the contents from my one day masterclass that I usually do in London, but spread out over six weeks, gonna set you some homework to get you busy and just create a really good group who can hold each other to account. So if you feel like you want a productivity boost ahead of the end of the year, or in this very dark winter that we're about to experience, then that's the place to be so Six Weeks to Ninja, go to grahamallcott.com. And you'll find out more there. So let's get into this episodes. This is Ray Sagayam. I met Ray when I did some work for his company just about a year ago, and we talked about that a little bit during the episodes. Ray is just such an articulate, thoughtful, interesting leader just with a lot to say. And he honestly is probably the first person who coming into the episode had like two pages of really just brilliant bullet points. And I was like, really at a loss of how can I get all this stuff in the episode. And so you'll notice at the end of the episode, I actually just say to him, so anything else because I just knew that like loads of stuff that he hadn't got around to say yet. So just someone who really thinks about how to manage people really thinks about how he does his work, and just has some really great wisdom to share. So I think you're gonna really enjoy this one. Here is my conversation with Ray Sagayam.
I'm here with Ray Sagayam. How are you sir?
Raymond Sagayam 3:13
I'm doing very well. Graham, how are you?
Graham Allcott 3:14
I'm good. It's a horrible day, as I'm recording looking out over rain in very blustery, horrible, or very autumnal weather, which isn't very nice. And you're in London, right?
Raymond Sagayam 3:26
Yes, I'm in my office in in London. In The City of London in Margate. It's, it's a pretty empty office. But but there are, you know, there are quite a few people in the city, you know, maybe 30% of what it is, you know, on a usual day in a usual year. So there is some activity in some life but but much less than usual.
Graham Allcott 3:50
And does anything else feel different about it? Aside from the fact that there's just a lot fewer people? So obviously we're recording this in a sort of post lockdown, maybe pre another lockdown kind of state? Is there anything that just feels different about London as a result?
Raymond Sagayam 4:06
Yeah, I mean, in the city.
Even even going out and getting my lunch. There are a few places which are open and doing well because a lot of the that 30% of businesses just channelled into a few of those takeaway joints. But but most of the others remain closed. Many of the other ancillary businesses remain closed here. So it's it's a little bit of a Yeah, it has a slightly odd feel about it. It was strange for me to go to Covent Garden. The other weekend I went with my family for a meal. And Covent Garden, which is normally heaving at any time of the day and any time of the week was was pretty empty and it remains fairly empty. And I think that's a function of the lack of tourism as well. So I think central London probably feels a stranger, the City of London Getting back. But but still odd.
Graham Allcott 5:03
Yeah, I took my son a couple of weekends ago to the London Transport museum. And he's obsessed with trains and buses and stuff. And what was weird was the whole of London felt really quiet and everyone was wearing masks. And the only place that was busy was we walked back through Trafalgar Square. And it was heaving with all these people on an anti mask protest all. So everyone else is wearing masks where they're all, you know, far apart from each other. And then there's this like, mob of people who are, you know, deliberately not wearing masks, which is quite unsettling.
Raymond Sagayam 5:37
It is quite unsettling. Yes. And I, you know, the many occasions I'll glance at a bus. And of course, you you know, you're supposed to wear a mask, you know, just for the peace of mind of the other passengers. And I'm still staggered that so many in the bus choose not to do that
Graham Allcott 5:55
Oh really? Yeah. I was looking at my house as a bus stop outside of it. And pretty much everyone's wearing a mask. And so when the bus stops outside my house, and I see it, which happens, maybe you know, a couple of times a day. That's the time when I remember that we're in a pandemic, because the rest of the time I can just kind of forget about it and be on with my work, but when you see the the bus looks something like out 28 days later or something it kind of reminds you. But let's talk about your career and background. So we met when we did some work together a you know, probably about a year ago now, isn't it? Time flies? But you are a senior leader in finance, we won't give the company name just for reasons of confidentiality. But yeah, so you work in a big asset management firm. And it has your career, always been in finance has that been the predominant thing that you've done?
Raymond Sagayam 6:52
It has since I left university, I read economics at the LSE and went straight to finance because I think at that stage, I was fairly clear in my mind what I what I wanted to go for. But as a as a teenager, in most of my, my life, pre University, I'd always wanted to become a doctor medicine is the thing which interested me most. I remember as a kid, spending time with some family in Malaysia. And one of my uncle's was a surgeon, came back to the house and brought a heart just to do to practice dissection. And that interest, wow, it captivated me. And I think I must have been maybe six years old at the time. And you know, I've always had an interest in medicine, I still do, but probably with a more holistic tilt. But then at the same time, finance also interested me. In my late teens, I'd already started buying and selling things, just anything things like bomber jackets, your water coolers, mobile phones in university, there was always the desire to buy, where I could transform and then sell. Yeah, and I think that lent itself into a real passion in in the field of trading and investing. And that's what I started to tilt my career towards some soon after university.
Graham Allcott 8:24
And I also read that you're the son of a diplomat. So did that involve a lot of moving around as a kid and what was the What was that like, as a lifestyle,
Raymond Sagayam 8:32
it was a great experience for me. My dad was a Malaysian diplomat. We have Indian ancestry. And both my parents were born in Malaysia. So Malaysian, he, typically we would spend about three to four years in the country and then get posted to a different one. I had the privilege the benefit of living in in the United States, I was born there. Also in Malaysia for a period of time, where most of our family is China for a few years. And that was also a wonderful experience as a kid, and in Singapore. And before we then move to the UK, and that was my father's final posting. And, you know, I've lived there ever since. So my formative years have been in London in the UK, but but I had, you know, sufficient opportunity as a child to live in those different countries. And for me, that was actually a great experience, something I wouldn't miss out on. If I could do it all over again.
Graham Allcott 9:40
Do you think it taught you stuff that sense of having to move regularly and just experiencing lots of different cultures like what did you learn from that?
Raymond Sagayam 9:47
I think subconsciously Yes. Then the culture is the key word. The you know, we lived everywhere from east to west. I have three older sisters, you know, my my father also served in Vietnam, just before the war. And in in Paris and France, two of my sisters were born there. So they've had an even broader spectrum. But But I still had the east and west. And and I think it gave me that cultural, not just the familiarity but the ease of being in assimilating in different cultural settings. You know, London's an interesting case in point, probably the most multicultural city in the world. hard to find a close second. And perhaps that's one of the reasons why I've remained here for the remainder of my life, probably because subconsciously, I'm most comfortable in that multicultural setting.
Graham Allcott 10:48
So London kind of is the world isn't it? I remember in the 2012 Olympics, they made a point that it was the first time that the host city would have populations of people from every country that was competing in the Olympic Games is the first time that ever happened. And I think, I think that was that was even don't quote me, but I think they even said that in the borough of Stratford, there were people from every country in the world or something, it was quite a remarkable statistic, but I think it kind of brings that home, doesn't it that like, I guess, if you're so used to experiencing lots of different cultures, then London is the place to be? Yeah. But maybe not, maybe not finance, and, you know, the, the world of working in finance this year, right? Maybe that's not the place to be. So how has 2020 been, you know, for, for someone who's, you know, leading teams and, and working in finance, just described this year, what's it been like,
Raymond Sagayam 11:46
it's been a year like, like no other. And, of course, when COVID was at its most acute, felt most acutely in March this year, the impact on financial markets was profound, you know, profoundly negative. But then the subsequent appreciation in the price of assets, the response by governments and central banks was was so huge, overwhelming and decisive, that we had a V shape, at least as regards financial assets are concerned. And when you look at the price of stocks and bonds right now, you'd almost be forgiven for thinking that nothing ever happened this year. And we know that the human impact and the toll, and the personal impact has been felt very differently and continues to be quite pervasive. For me, the speed of how quickly this came upon us as an industry was was something quite a significant challenge. You know, there were many asset managers, including ourselves, experienced a degree of outflows in the early months in the month of January to March. And then subsequently, lots of inflows, but that's correlated with how the market behaved as well.
Graham Allcott 13:05
What do you mean by outflows and inflows just to
Raymond Sagayam 13:08
so so just in our funds under management, we of course, have a responsibility for looking after capital on behalf of all of our clients. When when things are looking more pear shaped for want of a better word. There's obviously a desire on the part of the end end client, perhaps to raise cash and to to get out of those investments. So that's what I mean by outflows. And of course, inflows are when the confidence level has been restored. And they start reinvesting in the funds. You for us. We didn't feel that too acutely, but but the but the entire business felt that to some extent, right, in in light with in relation to how the market itself behaved. And for all of that kind of behaviour to be compressed in a fairly short timeframe is of course, destabilising and it's destabilising, when, at the same time, the underlying issue is a physiological one. And people are trying to readjust and adapt to a new way of working. So I'm talking about the early part of this year, just to be clear, right? Yeah. You know, the concept of working from home making sure the tech tech was all fine. Getting used to having meetings on BlueJeans instead of in person and so on. So at the same time of having this sort of V shaped effect in financial markets and assets and flows, you had a much bigger and a real issue about health. How do I stay healthy? How do I adjust my working day into this completely new environment? And for many people, that's been tough. It's been tough when they've had children at home, no health care. But they've still had to continue working. So this has been a big adjustment year. A blessing in some senses, and maybe we can come on to that later on. But uh, but I think the the human adjustment was probably the most the more challenging one.
Graham Allcott 15:10
So remember when we work together and you were spending spending a lot of time talking to your people about about key themes, like how to make decisions, how to stay resilient, how to recognise your own biases, and all of that seems like really visionary stuff to be focused on with your team a year ago, you know, presumably not not being aware that a pandemic was around the corner. But it strikes me that the, the world of finance, you know, you are required to work really long hours. And so there must be, there must be some I've known tips and tricks, or there must be an approach around resilience and keeping your brain and keeping decision making on an even keel, even when you're working long hours. And so I'm just wondering what you feel, are some of the sort of key approaches to that, that really work that really allow you to, to work those long hours and still make a difference and be productive in the work that you do?
Raymond Sagayam 16:12
Thanks, Graham, for the for the comment. Yes, of course, I had no foresight, and certainly no insider information about the pending virus. But it was helpful that we had that discussion. The issues which we face in our industry, I think are issues we face, beyond the world of finance, most industries, if not all, these days are operating with a high level of expectations, a high level of efficiency. And I think many individuals in many industries feel that they're doing the work of two individuals, which is a little bit ironic, given that supposed to be a more technologically adept and more more efficient. But anyway, that's a different matter. So I think, you know, my first point is the concept about tips around resilience, I would like to think apply beyond the world of finance. Very often, there's a misunderstanding and a misconception that it's all about time management. And for me, it's not so much about time management, time management is the icing on the cake. But the elephant in the room is your energy levels and how you really feel right? Yeah, and how you feel physically and mentally drive that resilience. Right? When you've had a good night's sleep, when you've when you've had a good diet, you've eaten Well, you've rested well. You feel fresh the next day and capable of taking anything on. And that's what confers the resilience. You know, you may kid yourself and think, Okay, let me shorten my meetings that may cut down my number of meetings and so on. But as I say that those are helpful tools. But sequential, the they're a bit the icing on the cake. So then the question is, how do you feel better? And how do you feel more energetic. And I think that you have to move away from the day to day of, of work and focus on things like sleep and sleep quality. And I talk about quality here more than quantity, about how you look after your mind, you know, the mind is like your body it needs to be exercised and then rested. You know, it's the same as working out, you work out intensively and then you rest and then your body adapts to that. Nutrition is is so important and goes hand in hand with our mental state and sleep. So I think those are three aspects I'd love to focus on and happy to elaborate on that, if you wish.
Graham Allcott 18:46
Yeah. Tell me more about the sleep thing. So you mentioned the quantity versus quality of sleep and the quality being more important. And I always think of sleep in terms of the number of hours, right? So tell me about that.
Raymond Sagayam 18:58
I've had mixed relationship with sleep over the years, I've not always been the best sleeper. But really, after many years of looking into this, and understanding how it can be improved, something you know, called sleep hygiene. So many of the things which I'm sure many of the listeners and yourself would already be familiar with, you know, no screens, after a certain time putting your blue light filter on. You're only using your bed, you know, for sleep and so on. But that's all sleep hygiene again. For me, those are small steps, which in aggregate can make a big impact, you know, other things. Other examples of that would be the avoidance of alcohol in the evening and caffeine and so on. But I think many people know about that and still experience bad sleep. So partly it's an implementation issue.
Graham Allcott 19:50
Many people also know about that and still have a beer in the evening.
Raymond Sagayam 19:54
Exactly. And that's what I mean by an implementation. It's just that they know about it but they still transgress and myself Myself included. But the biggest revelation for me, really the biggest one. And I think if I had to pick one factor, which can really influence an enhanced your sleep, is the concept of going to bed and rising at the same time. Even at weekends. So as much as you want to have a line at the weekends, but it's about, it's all about the body clock, and conditioning or reconditioning your body to that clock. And that's the most powerful influence I feel on sleep. And something which of course, I've experimented on myself throughout my life and these years. So going to bed and rising at the same time, even at the weekends. Initially, the the concept here would be to start with fewer hours, not more, if you think, Oh, you know, I'm getting up at six in order in order to get a, you know, good night's sleep and to be rested, I've got to go to bed at 10 or 1030. That's not the way you should approach it, actually, you know, it's fine to go to bed at 12, or one, still get up at six. Now, you may feel a bit groggy in the morning, hmm, but you're more likely to have deep and quality sleep, because your desire to sleep at that time would be much greater than perhaps a 10 or 10:30.
Graham Allcott 21:13
Yeah, like, I would struggle with that, from the point of view of I, I really always feel like I need a good seven or eight hours, at least seven hours, and preferably eight. And I also like my early mornings, so I do tend to when I'm in that cycle of things just go to bed quite early. So you know, nine, sometimes, you know, by 10 at the latest kind of thing. So I would struggle with that experimentation to reduce the number of hours. So like, is that something that you would, when you first started doing that, were you were you feeling like you needed more sleep and you were tired and did it change
Raymond Sagayam 21:53
it's part of the approach of resetting the clock, right? So you start with the fewer hours. And then you realise as you need more, and then you you you widen the bands a little bit, and then you sleep a little bit earlier, and then you stick to that for a week, and so on. And so that's just a starting point, if you need to reset the clock, so to speak. But coming back to your point, it's fine. I mean, you need, you know, Graham Allcott needs eight hours, and that's okay. And for me that maybe seven hours or six and a half hours, we're different. And our bodies also need different amounts of sleep. So I think that's another misconception that there's a sort of a, an ideal amount, you know, we have a range, which we know is probably good for us. But within that range, there can be a lot of dispersion, and there is a lot of dispersion.
Graham Allcott 22:41
And so you're you're a bit less than eight hours. And I
Raymond Sagayam 22:44
I think I used to be eight, but but now it's probably more like seven. So I'm not far off you, I think,
Graham Allcott 22:51
and that's good that you're you know, prioritising it to that level as well. Right, when presumably, you're working quite quite a long week in terms of just the number of hours and amount of time that you're that you're away from home.
Raymond Sagayam 23:04
Yeah, I mean, that work intensity was always there in my field. And, and I think in many senses, it's been compounded by having to do those same engagements and meetings over a virtual format can be very tiring, to have the same duration of a meeting virtually on some or BlueJeans, as it is in person. So I think this year, certainly made me more more aware of this, and, and take this topic a lot more seriously, but for myself, and also, you know, other people in my team as well, I think feel the same way.
Graham Allcott 23:43
So just moving away from asleep. So you mentioned nutrition in mind there. So what are your kind of key rules for the road there in terms of keeping you fresh
Raymond Sagayam 23:54
mind even coming back to my point earlier, it has to be rested, not only exercised, there are many ways of doing that. And disconnecting meditation, of course, is something which is increasingly gaining traction for the right reasons here. You know, the goal of meditation is not to empty your mind, but it's to re gain control of your mind. Very often we're the prisoner of our thoughts and we go to bed with our head swimming of thoughts and ideas and, and visions and so on. And and I think the power of meditation is not the only way is to allow for that essential and that necessary reset of that mind and to allow us to function optimally the following day. nutrition for me is a big aspect. You know, having the right kind of water and gut health is key in Eastern medicine. There's a huge focus on gut health is referred to as a reflector of our overall well being. You know, we often think about having butterflies if we are nervous We're thinking about something. But the transmission mechanism between our brain and our gut goes in both directions. And if we don't look after what we're eating, that can impact our mental well being and our mental state. There are many studies, which show that a large number of individuals who have been diagnosed with anxiety and stress conditions have had poor digestion in the lead up, it's a common symptom in the lead up to that diagnosis. And I don't think that's by by accident at all. So I think, you know, paying attention to your nutrition is very important. And of course, digestive health is driven by what we eat and intolerances as adults, we're much more likely to develop intolerances, which we didn't have when we were younger. So for me, that's something which can be tested and should be tested. It doesn't cost much, you know, less than 80 pounds. And you can you can do a hair or a small blood sample, but you can understand very quickly what you're intolerant to. And by eliminating that for a short period of time, it allows your body again to heal, and and to restore stability on your gut again, so sorry for going on about this one. I know you're about to interject with a question grant. I had to finish the gut health important and obviously pay attention to food intolerances, I think alongside.
Graham Allcott 26:25
Yeah, I was also just going to say my own experiences around nutrition. And a few years ago, really upping my energy levels was was just a huge revelation. And I ended up co authoring a book with Collette Hennigan, which is actually, we're just going to rerelease it in January. It's called How to have the energy. So pretty by the time this comes out, that will be available on Amazon to preorder. But yeah, it's called How to have the energy if you want to check that out. And yeah, totally agree with everything that you've just said there.
Raymond Sagayam 26:55
Excellent. Thank you.
Graham Allcott 26:56
Let's move on and talk about a couple of key values for you. And this really came out of when we work together is you talk to me a lot about these two key values of hard work and humility. And I just really like that juxtaposition and combination, but love to know more about how those landed for you as really key values. And also, how do you espouse those when you're leading and managing people,
Raymond Sagayam 27:22
there are many traits which are desirable, in others, and in ourselves, and I, I've reflected on this for a period of time, and I've tried to distil them into these two traits, the ones you mentioned gramme, hardwork, and humility, because I feel that from those two, so many other substrates follow, you know, our world is run by individuals who are not all geniuses. And that's not a bad thing. It's just about how you run and manage businesses and individuals. And you don't need to be a genius to do that. So I think softer skills matter more than absolute levels of intelligence. It's probably one starting point I make. And I think that just the concept of of working hard, but also acknowledging that you don't have all the answers. And you want to surround yourself, by people who can compliment you and have those answers, I think can get you a very long way. And when I've, I've interviewed so many hundreds of people over the years for various roles in our organisation and other organisations I've worked with, and and for me, those are the two traits, which, if I really identified what drew me towards those individuals, it probably comes down to those two factors, which I think ultimately drive their potential and their success in the field and in the organisation.
Graham Allcott 28:59
I mean, other than just getting a general sense, is there anything in terms of how you interview people, you know, little techniques, or particular questions that really draw those those things out?
Raymond Sagayam 29:09
To get to the bottom of those traits? You've got to go fairly personal in the interview content and style, which of course these days is sometimes precarious ground. So there is a little bit of diplomacy and skill required in that but but I think in an interview process, you're not the only individual interviewing the candidate. There are many other people interviewing the candidate and, and you know that there's going to be a fairly thorough analysis done of the, if you like, the technical skills and the technical suitability for the role also by yourself, you know, it's not something if everyone delegates that to the other person that no one's going to cover that ground. Yeah, but I think there has to be a good component in that meeting. To touch on softer aspects to touch on the person And the human and for me, that's probably the most important aspect of the interview. Hmm, I'm surprised it surprises them. But it's still, to this day, it surprises many. And I don't want to use the word candidates, because for me, it's not so much about an interview. It's a meeting. And it's a meeting to assess mutual fit and suitability not just about us assessing their fit, but also just as important to ensure that they're making the right decision and for the right reasons.
Graham Allcott 30:27
What are the other things that I read about you that was really interesting was your background was that you have a master's in Catholic theology. And also your wife is Buddhist as well. So just wondering whether there's a sense of spirituality for you in the way that you approach work as well. And just where you see that sort of crossover of those two ideas?
Raymond Sagayam 30:53
Yes, I, my wife is, but is, and I'm, I'm a practising Christian. And so so our kids, I also come, or my parents come from Malaysia, and Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim country. And I also have a brother in law, you know, who was Hindu, as well. So the, the concept of this, this multi faith dimension is not new to me or my family. And it's something I think we've always embraced from the get go, which I think is quite important to me, and also how we raise our kids. The spirituality for me goes beyond a set of guiding principles. For many, it's no more than that. And that's fine. Right? And perhaps that's the bridge, which links the secular and the more organised faith, right, that there's a lot of commonality in terms of values and guiding principles. And that's a good thing. Yeah, for me, it goes a little bit further than that. And I'd almost like to use an analogy to help explain it. And I say help because we're entering realms of things, which are difficult to explain and difficult to put into words. I often think of elite athletes, you know, top golfers, top sports people, as a good analogy here, because those individuals have mastered their mind and their body, not just their body, but also their mind, you know, the total autofocus, when doing what they do. But many of them, and some of them for sure, not attain the state of happiness, right, and where's that void in their lives. And I don't want to necessarily cite any specific examples, but I think anyone listening, I'm sure will be able to think of some good examples. And so they've mastered their mind in the body, but what's missing? And for me that aspect, and that's just my belief, right? That aspect is, perhaps there's a spiritual dimension, which is missing. And that's why, you know, for me, that aspect goes beyond a set of guiding principles. I say that not from a point of virtuosity, it's just based on what works for me what I value and what I was given as a child and what I continued to hold dear to my heart. But But I have to emphasise the point and virtuosity, you know, very often it can be confused. As a practising Christian I'll use the analogy with the church for me is, is for sinners, it's not for saints, if I was a saint, I would need to go to church. And and that's the way I look at it.
Graham Allcott 33:38
Well, it feels like we're getting into the realms of how do you define happiness? And obviously, the, I suppose the first loads, I could ask you about this, but I think the first question I want to ask you, around that just obviously, as someone who works in finance is do you think money can buy happiness?
Raymond Sagayam 33:57
Money definitely won't buy you happiness. But having or attaining a state of happiness, first and foremost, may actually help you get more affluent if that's a goal of yours. Yeah. So it's the concept of what what drives success, right? is happiness a consequence of being successful? Or is happiness and that's my assertion, the starting point, which then potentially drives success, and are many different definitions of success. And I firmly believe it's that way around.
Graham Allcott 34:34
And it's the same as productivity and happiness, right? Like people always have this belief that if I just get way more productive, and I just get the next two promotions, or my business does XYZ, then that productivity will lead to my happiness and people look at happiness as being the sort of goal at the end of the rainbow. And actually, it's totally the other way around, right. So you're much more likely to dry high levels of productivity and success if you start from a place of happiness, right? Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. When you're happy when you're energetic. You don't look at the clock, you don't think I've got somewhere else to be, but you just immerse yourself heart and soul into whatever you're doing. So I couldn't agree with you more. And, look, it's easier said than done. You know, the next question we how, how do I get happy? How do I? how, you know, how can I be happy. And you know, for me,
Raymond Sagayam 35:32
if happiness is out of reach, aim for contentment, far easier and 100% likely I guarantee you, if the goal is contentment, you'll get it and you can get it in an instant. And just by shifting your state of mind, I think if you shift that state of mind in a in a more practice, or an experienced manner, that contentment may actually morph into happiness, who knows? But But aim for contentment, and that's a much more achievable goal.
Graham Allcott 36:01
I often think of those two things is, I mean, I think I just think about contentment as being almost like my definition of happiness, do you not I mean, I think sometimes people, people's definition of happiness is much more along the lines of happiness is, you know, this kind of, you know, material success, or this kind of lifestyle, or this kind of feeling even, you know, and actually just feeling that you are present and in the moment and grateful and, and therefore content like for me, that's, that's the main thing to aim for anyway. Right?
Raymond Sagayam 36:36
I think you're right, perhaps I should evolve myself in that thinking, I still have a bit more of a classical. And I think it's linked to phraseology, I think of contentment, in a certain realms, and happiness is perhaps being a more exacerbated version of that. But I think the way you described it is probably the, the more philosophical and the more and more more mature way. So I buy into your, your way of thinking.
Graham Allcott 37:01
I think for me, it's like, it's contentment. And then also, you want regular periods of feeling flow in whatever you're doing. Right. So yes, yes, flow for me is, you know, watching a really boring three hour baseball game, which I just find endlessly fascinating. And I get lost in it. And, you know, flow might be, you know, riding your bike or whatever. He said, I think you need that, too, like, I know, I certainly do. But flow and contentment, I think it's the, for me, that's the formula.
Raymond Sagayam 37:31
you've sold me on this.
Graham Allcott 37:34
So let me ask you a bit more about success. So you obviously work in an industry where you're surrounded by lots of money and high salaries and people good people that can afford nice cars and that kind of thing. Do you feel like there's a Do you feel like that has an influence on the way people see success? Or does it go the other way, and people end up much more philosophical, like just interested to kind of think about, you know, like, the influence that money can have on how we think about success?
Raymond Sagayam 38:04
I'm not sure I can shed more light on this. You know, I think the the compensation in the industry is probably commensurate with the, with the nature and the intensity of work. I don't feel that it's the primary motivator and driver, if I'm really honest with you. I think there's a sense in the feeling of being paid what's fair for for the role for the, for the results for the output, but but if you ask me, if I understand your question correctly, if if that's, if I think if that's the primary motivator or drive, I definitely don't think that's the case. I think it's almost a baseline consideration, but for for motivation to occur. That really has to come from the career and the job satisfaction and the potential to have an impact on the team and the organisation. I think those factors matter much more to the individuals that I deal with than the monetary reward.
Graham Allcott 39:06
Do you think do you think like people's view of successes is very much based on them doing a good job then? Or do you think people have particular views of success that are based on reaching a particular end goal or something like that?
Raymond Sagayam 39:20
I definitely think there's a highly varied concept around success. And and you ask to individuals, you're going to get two very different answers. But that's because success is also a very personal thing. You know, for me, I would have defined success in a more classical context in the earlier part of my career. And I define it very differently now in maybe softer aspects. So there isn't a homogenous answer to that. I think people in the earliest stages of their career and I appreciate I'm generalising here will tend to value Korea structure, titles, maybe some Monetary aspect to move along with that would probably value that to a greater extent because that's a very clear reflect and a barometer of the output and the input as well. But but that does change.
Graham Allcott 40:15
Yeah, it does. Yeah, I definitely feel it in the first, certainly the first five years of my career, and probably probably actually, then that felt that influence for a lot longer. But in the first few years, I was just so astounded that anyone had given me a job. So I felt like in the first few years, I have to work really hard. And I need to achieve certain levels of success for me, in order that I'm not going to end up on the sort of employment scrapheap, you know, as long as like, if I lose this job, then I'll be totally screwed, you know. And it was a really long time before I got to a place where I didn't feel that sense of imposter syndrome and didn't feel like, you know, I, everything I did was me having it was all on the line, I had it all to prove, like, took me a long time really to sort of to shift that in terms of my own
Raymond Sagayam 41:06
career, I think, I think you hit the nail on the head in the early, earlier part of our careers. There's a desire or necessity even to reflect that capability of ourselves. So we're trying to prove ourselves. Yeah, whereas perhaps not always the case. But perhaps at a later stage. As one gains yourself a sense of a different sense of confidence, perhaps and reassurance in power, perhaps even within the organisation, that shift away from yourself towards others, and and allowing others room to to be that reflect, perhaps, is that maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's a natural evolution of that
Graham Allcott 41:51
career. I know when we spoke, you're a big fan of Stephen Covey and Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And just wondering if you have any, maybe the the eighth and the ninth and the 10th habits, but just other things that you think are really important in terms of, you know, things that you see successful people doing. And you know, this the traits or behaviours that you've really noticed from highly successful people.
Raymond Sagayam 42:16
If I remember one takeaway from Stephen Covey's book, the one you just mentioned Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It's about the habitual nature of a character, you know, we think of characters something innate. And that's not necessarily true, it may be the one but it can be changed and cultivated and honed in in a different direction. Aristotle says we are habitually, we are what we habitually do, right. As a big fan of martial arts, I think of what Bruce Lee said, you know, it takes 10,000 kicks to master it in the first place, right? So this concept of of habit, leading to mastery, self mastery, but even extrapolating to qualitative dimensions as character, something which I believe fairly strongly on,
Graham Allcott 43:10
you also said something to me about, there's the people who come with problems, and then there's people who come with solutions. And yeah, tell me more about that.
Raymond Sagayam 43:19
It's important. And it's, it's important when you can sit to the mind's eye of the other person, if it staggers me, how many people experienced individuals even come to the table with a with a list of problems, and that's fine. But if you're coming to the table with a list of problems, presumably you've also thought about the accompanying solution as well. And and when you look at the subset of individuals who come to the table with the problem and the solution, it's a surprisingly small percentage. And I think that's why it's quite a defining feature in our workplace.
Graham Allcott 43:54
And again, that's one of those things that over the years, I'm sure you kind of spot who's doing that regularly. And, you know, sort of noticed those traits fairly innately,
Raymond Sagayam 44:04
it's easy to spot, but it's also something you've got to live and breathe yourself as well. It's something I've always felt was essential, because otherwise, I mean, how can you expect the other person to be fully engaged and receptive, you know, but if you if you come up with some ideas, even if those ideas are not the ones which are ultimately taken, it just shows that you've you've given full consideration and care to the matter. And then you're not just dumping this and sort of delegating that that responsibility or the you know, that does not work for me, it never has.
Graham Allcott 44:34
Yeah, and we start bleeding into an area here about, I guess, managing people and feels like that's been a very important part of your career. And your success is just the ability to manage and lead in the right way. So I'd love to hear what some of the things are that you've learned over the years about how you best manage people. The list is long, but let me try and cherry pick a few things. Which come to mind grab.
Raymond Sagayam 45:04
The first, the most important thing is also how you perceive the other individual, you know, and I'll just take one example here, if your starting point is from a vantage point of judgement, you know, is that employee lazy or lacking in hard work, the other way of looking at it is that person lacking purpose, right? So this concept of lack of work ethic or lack of purpose, I think, is a very important point. And I think as a starting point, you've got to assume that if they're, for whatever reason, this subpar, give them the benefit of the doubt, it's almost like innocent until proven guilty, they use the lack of purpose as a starting point and try to understand what motivates what drives them. In order to solve for that now, it may reach a point where it is fundamentally fundamentally untenable, and you have to part company. But but that's fine, but only once you really, in your mind, framed or reframed it, to give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place. I think that's a very important point, it's quite a subtle point.
Graham Allcott 46:09
Reminds me of that thing in facilitation, actually, where facilitators have a little saying, which is there's no such thing as a difficult person, just a person who hasn't had their needs met yet.
Raymond Sagayam 46:22
There you go. It's, it's, it's also, you know, you can extrapolate that that concept with children, you know, do you praise, the effort or the outcome? Right, very often, we think of things in a very conventional sense, let's just look at the outcome in black or white terms. But actually, it's the effort and what goes into it. And that sense of drive, which I would argue is probably a bit but that I'm detracting a little bit to come back to your question, I think there are two other aspects which come to mind. And that's more in the conveyancing, and the approach of leadership, the first thing, there is directness and diplomacy, I think we touched on that at the off site we share together when you very kindly spoke, and engaged my whole team in Rome last year before the lockdown. But the importance of both of those attributes, you must have both and you'd be effective in most situations, in my view, you know the truth. And I'm going to quote you, Graham, I think you've you've said in the past, the truth is often hard to hear, but needs kindness. Very often, some of us are very direct, or too diplomatic. But it's the confluence of the two calibrating it in the right way, which I think is a key key metric of success and also defines strong leaders and strong leadership. The last aspect is something as simple as communication, and how we convey a message. I remember another individual who spoke at the off site, Daniel Crosby, who a wonderful individual who wrote a book called The behavioural investor. Yeah, we've had him on the broadcast, actually, as well. So we'll put a link to that episode. in the show notes, please do but and you know, I remember Daniel said, something which really resonates with me, which is writing and speaking, it forces you to simplify a concept and to understand it better only when you can convert something which which is very complex into simple words, can you truly show that you've understood it? And, and, and writing and speaking, forces you to do that. But the the point I'm also trying to make here is the articulation and conveying a message concisely and with clarity is also very key in my industry and also beyond. And I think that's an important point. It's also an important point to gain trust to foster trust in leadership circles as well.
Graham Allcott 48:49
That thing you're just saying about how writing and speaking crystallises your thoughts. So this is probably my most, the most helpful piece of writing advice I've ever been given was something that I really I see in my own writing all the time. And basically, what what you want in a paragraph is the first sentence of the paragraph to summarise what the rest of the paragraph is going to be about. And what I noticed often when I'm writing a first draft, is the last sentence that I'm writing in that paragraph, I end up moving to be the first sentence and that's because you know, you're in the middle of your, your sort of thought flow, and you get the idea out and then usually what you're doing is you're kind of summarising that idea and that thought with the last sentence of the paragraph, but like, it actually makes it read better if you just move that last sentence to the start and have that at the start like that really is the illustration for me if that point of the more you express those ideas, in a kind of, you know, public facing outwardly facing way rather than it just being in your head, the more it crystallised. Right. It's a great tip. Really, we, we have a few more minutes left, I'd love to just talk about productivity and work life balance before we finish from. And then I'm going to ask you about what your alternative career would be if you didn't end up in. in finance. So productivity and work life balance, I suppose you've talked a bit about resilience, right. But I'd love to hear a bit more about kind of how you switch off and, and the things that you do to sort of draw those boundaries particularly, and, you know, for people working from home, and then a bit more about productivity as well. So to start with the work life balance thing, well, how do you how do you switch off?
Raymond Sagayam 50:39
If you asked me this question, two years ago, I would have said, I would have given you a long list like, you know, nice deep tissue massage, you're doing yoga, going to the gym, lying down in the sauna, shooting target, shooting something like that, right? So very much a concrete list of to do things. Yeah, I'd modify my answer a little bit. I mean, those are certainly things I enjoy doing, and helped me decompress. But they only helped me decompress. If I'm fully present, I'll take the example of a massage. Very often, when I'm having a massage, I will speak to the therapists, you know, I just feel it's a friendly thing to do, and just sort of makes me feel better to do that, rather than just, you know, lying the, you know, like a sort of a dead fish. But But I can tell you, a good therapist will tell you after about 15, or 20 minutes, politely to be quiet and to stop talking. And, and for me, that's actually a very good gauge on on an experience and a very good therapist, someone who's who's going to be willing and confident enough to tell you that. But But again, you won't enjoy the massage until you're fully immersed and disconnected right with all of those activities. So for me, the best way to decompress is, is really being present. But I gave you tangible examples of some recreational hobbies if you like, and what's your key rule for productivity? Meeting efficiency is something I'm quite passionate about. Our meetings will fill the space we allow them to fill. If you if you schedule one hour, it'll be an hour, if you schedule half an hour, it will be that I think if there's one blessing from this whole curve of experience, and the functionality of working from home, etc, it's the reminder that we are able to have far more efficient meetings in half the time a third of the time. It's It's wonderful what you can achieve in 20 or 30 minutes instead of the full hour. So so for me that that's a key. You know, key I don't want to say the word realisation but I think it's a key a key factor of greater efficiency.
Graham Allcott 52:50
And then if you weren't working in finance and you had an alternative career, if you could start again do something else. What would you do
Raymond Sagayam 53:00
I would probably work with the with the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. I appreciate this may come out of left field. I've always loved the the discipline, the confidence, the skill, which come from the beauty and the variety of different martial arts from around the world. I've practised many myself since I was a teenager. And I I never stayed with each one long enough to get a black belt. But that was intentional, because I realised very early on that you can achieve the bulk of the skill set in the first couple of years. And then it takes many more years to reach those those marginal skills if you like. So, by trying different ones for two years at a time, I think a big picked up a good suite of you know fun and interesting skills. Interestingly enough, this whole concept of mixed martial arts MMA really only gained traction in the past two decades in the past and in particular in the past decade. And the UFC is the is if you like the the organisation which dominates the monopolises the sport but but also does an amazing job of it, you know, led by some very visionary individuals, you know, Dana White, and the Fertitta brothers with a story behind the UFC and really how it got resurrected. And and and is probably one of the most the fastest growing sports in the world right now is a fascinating one in itself and perhaps a subject of a different conversation. But I would say if I wasn't in finance now, that's that's probably where I'd be, given that I would have probably passed up on the opportunity to become a doctor.
Graham Allcott 54:46
So would you would you have been in the cage or you'd have been outside writing about it or doing something else I'll leave that one for you to figure out
Raymond Sagayam 54:56
maybe in the cage recreationally. But But you know, just being me, I guess being being part of it. You know, I, the finance, we talked earlier about this, there are parallels in the world of finance with with many other industries in the real world.
Graham Allcott 55:15
Interesting. And we've covered a lot of ground, hey, it's been really lovely having you on the podcast, usually at the end, the final word is for our guests to just, you know, say what they, you know, draw the listeners attention to something they're promoting, or how they can connect to whatever. And obviously, you're, you're on here, slightly anonymously. So I'm going to give you a slightly different end point, which is just Is there anything else that you'd like to, to share with the listeners before we finish,
Raymond Sagayam 55:49
thank you, thank you for leaving it open ended there is there is something I would love to share, which is a recent discovery and other discovery in this in this period, and it's called. In Japanese they have a word for it. That word is shinrin Yoku, which means forest bathing. And it's something which I never really did before. We are lucky enough to live in a part of London, not far from some forestry different to open fields. And I developed this affinity thanks to my wife and my son who, who went there a few months ago and asked me to join them as well. And I have to say it's been it's been an amazing experience, the air is totally different. freshness doesn't even describe it. You know, I think being surrounded by dense forest read, it releases negative ions in the end, and it just makes for a healthy and a refreshing feeling. And I just cannot recommend it more highly if you are fortunate enough to be near forest and if you're not, try it out. And you'll see it's a very different experience to to walking, for example, in the open air, so forest bathing, bathing. shinrin Yoku is My top tip.
Graham Allcott 57:07
That's really nice. I actually a couple weekends ago just went and wild camped in some Woods here in Brighton, which was just the waking up in the morning was such a lovely experience of just being surrounded by the forest and trees. And yeah, absolutely lovely. What a lovely note to end on. So Ray, thank you so much for being part of beyond busy. My pleasure on here and later. And yeah, I'm sure people will really enjoy this conversation. So thank you
Raymond Sagayam 57:36
appreciate Graham.
Graham Allcott 57:43
So thanks so much to Ray for being on the podcast. Thanks. Also, as ever to Mark Stedman, my producer on the show, and to Emilie, for all of our work behind the scenes, making all this happen. You can find the show notes and everything else as always, at getbeyondbusy.com. And as I say, if you're interested in being part of Think Productive's free webinars series, just go to thinkproductive.co.uk. Click on the free webinars thing at the top, and you'll find details of the future events, most of which are going to be run by me personally, actually. So I'm really looking forward to get involved with these. So first one is the 16th of October "How to Stop Procrastinating... Tomorrow", we're doing one on "How to Say No at Work", I'm going to do one on "The Productivity of Kindness" for World Kindness Day. So loads of really interesting topics coming up. And if you have thoughts and suggestions for topics you'd like to see, you can email me just graham@thinkproductive.co.uk. And the final thing I'm going to say is I am really upping my game in terms of marketing, and LinkedIn, Instagram, all that stuff. So if you're not following me on Twitter, and Instagram, it's just @GrahamAllcott. Go and check it out there, we share lots of quotes from these episodes, as well as lots of other stuff. So @GrahamAllcott, on Instagram and Twitter, or just add me on LinkedIn, pretty easy to find on there. So would love to have your connection on there as we wrote a thing for my weekly newsletter all about my pet peeves of LinkedIn. And we've put that up on on LinkedIn and on the blog as well. Just obviously some of the connection requests and just how inauthentic and sort of sleazy A lot of it is just horrible. But yeah, and also by the way, if you want to be part of that then if you go to grahamallcott.com and there's like a little thing you know, little thing you can fill in little form you can fill in to be part of my weekly mailing list. So every Sunday I send out this email rev up for the week. And it's basically just one positive idea dropped into your inbox every Sunday at four o'clock to set you up for the weekend. If you want to be part of that grahamallcott.com go and sign up there. And all of that kind of new this year I've really been changing how I deal with Instagram and Twitter and all that kind of stuff this year I've set up this mailing list revved up for the week, which is just growing really nicely and really enjoying the process of having to come up with something new and original every Sunday to a deadline. It's, it's really upping my game as a writer as well, which is really great. So I'd love you to be part of that and just help me to grow that list even further. So grahamallcott.com, check that out. That is it for this episode. We'll be back next week with another one. We've got some really incredible guests lined up over the next few weeks. So stay tuned, subscribe to give me a like, give us a review all that good stuff too. And we'll see you next week. Take care. Bye for now.