Black Founders Hub with Denise Nurse

Graham Allcott 0:07

This is beyond busy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books, including the global bestseller How to be a Productivity Ninja. And I'm the founder of Think Productive. We help people to make space for what matters and get more done. And we partner with some of the world's leading companies who share our mission to transform the world of work. Beyond busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness, and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work. My guest today is Denise Nurse. Denise is the co founder of the black founders hub, a network black entrepreneurs that was started here in the UK, but is now increasingly global. She's also a lawyer and entrepreneur, having started built and then sold a really unusual law firm. And she's also worked as a TV presenter for sky travel and on shows like escape to the country and watchdog. In this episode, we talk about race and how to encourage black entrepreneurs the journey from starting and growing to selling a business. And I think you're going to really learn a lot from Denise's outlook and energy. So let's get straight into it. This is Denise Nurse.

We're rolling on with Denise Nurse. How are you doing? really well. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, really nice to connect. And there's so much stuff I want to talk to you about. Let's start with the black founders hub. And this is something that you have launched with David McQueen, who has been on this podcast before, why the Black Founders Hub? And what does it do? And just give us the background to that.

Denise Nurse 1:43

Why do we need something that's called Black founders, how I am a black founder, and I ran my own law firm for many years together with my business partner who was who is a good friend, and her name is Jambi Patel. So she's an Asian founder. And we, like many black founders that used to being in the minority in most rooms were in his business circles, we're in what his meetings were in. And I didn't identify it as an issue, to be honest, it just is a fact of life. And I went to a school where I was in the minority I went to university, I was in the minority, I went to a job as as a black person doing certain jobs and roles as it was just a fact of life. But the business was quite successful. And 2017, I was standing on a stage giving a talk to about 4000 lawyers and people in the legal industry. And I was talking about women's equality. But I looked around the room. And again, I was one of barely point out any other black people. And I was so proud of what we've done with our business and how we'd got it to a really great level. And all I could think about was not being the only one. And so that was what I incorporated into my speech that says Like, I don't want to be the only one. I'm not a unicorn, I know there are others out there. So that was the seed for me, for black founders have like trying to find other black entrepreneurs in the professional services field, and bring us together. And that's how I found our third partner since myself, David and Rashida of July. So she was one of the other four black people, I think, at that event. And she is a black lawyer who'd worked at magic circle firm, and he was just about to launch her own business, we connected and said, I'd love to do something like this. She said, I'd love to be part of something like this. But we didn't do anything straightaway, life took over. And then, like so many things. Last year, the murder of George Floyd was a catalyst moment. And I, in my self reflection went through the emotions many people went through. So there was profound grief and sorrow. It was traumatic. And it made me think, again, about my experiences as a black person in the UK, and having had all of those emotions, my go to tends to be what can I do to make a change? And so this idea came back again, like, well, what if we, what can we do to make things better, and I I love business. So my go to is to help support others in business, and to find ways of creating success. So that's kind of why because instead of us all being our own, if we come together as a collective, we know that peer networking works. There's something called the old boys club, that was the thing for a reason. So I just want to create that for black founders, that safe space, that space to be yourself, space to connect and to do business. And the key thing with that what we're doing is it's, it's for business at a higher level. So it's not startups is to take existing businesses that could kind of just carry on at a certain level and inspire them and support them, too. To get to seven figure turnover, and beyond, to create something really economically powerful.

Graham Allcott 5:06

And I guess, you know, having done, you know, having done a startup and grown it and then sold it yourself. So you're in this position now where you're, you have so much of that experience that you can then pass on to, to other people. I want to just to sort of flip that round. So when you've now been working with lots of lots of other black founders and creating this network, what have you learned from them about the issues facing black founders, as opposed to facing white founders or other founders

Denise Nurse 5:37

to, in some respects, that the issues are the same where all business people were all you know, struggling to find capital and funding and to get started to make contacts how to sell the confidence, the main issue late really is the need for a collective and a safe space, where you can just show up as you you don't, there's a certain amount of who you are that you don't have to explain before you move into the conversation. And that is the experience that that a lot of black people and people from all sorts of other marginalised communities fill. The part of the reason I knew this would be work and be powerful is because I joined a women's network. So when I got to year four or five of my business, and we were doing okay, but I wanted to do better, I was recommended to join an organisation called women's presidents organisation. Now, I've been a member of many other business networks, but not one that was a small group of women CEOs of a certain level. And being in that space, just aware, we turned up and we could unapologetically talk about whatever it was, and it was a mix of childcare issues, or there was single women that were old women or young women, we could talk about, you know, health issues, and whatever it was, but we started the conversation, from a place of knowing, without apology, without explanation, more than I had in any other circle. And that ability to show up like that, and be vulnerable is really, really precious. And that's the thing I'd said notice the most about the the collective that we have here, they're all plugged into business networks, they're all doing all the right things anyway. But that the force of energy of being around other people who kind of, you can speak to a certain level who understand have a certain understanding with you, and has been that has been emotional at times, it's just, it's really quite touching. And to know that we exist, just that feeling of you're not the unicorn, that we exist, or we're all we're all working hard, or at that level, and we've all we're bringing that collective together, that's a that's the most significant thing.

Graham Allcott 7:46

feeling that it's like a really fundamental thing in leadership. So you know, in when, if you're putting together a team or working with people, you know, and likewise, just in in sort of creating, you know, spaces or dialogue of all kinds of things is like, there's a real human need for acceptance and a real human need for vulnerability, right, and to have that comfort to be able to be vulnerable. And not often, when you have that level of comfort. That's where you feel much more able to just sort of explore the more knotty issues that are actually sometimes the ones that just unlock everything and make everything work better. Right?

Denise Nurse 8:24

Exactly. It is that level of vulnerability, because it means some of those issues are set aside and then you can actually just deal with your work issues without the added question that you may have in your head. I'm sitting in this room, I'm the only black person amongst a room of white middle aged men, you know, and what do they think of me when I say, I didn't hit my numbers this month? Am I just reporting facts? Or am I also thinking, Oh, we've got one, we've got one in here and she's not good enough. That may not be true, but your own thoughts in your own head can be an inhibitor because you feel out of place if you're not even questioning your race when you sit in a space you can move past that and then get on with the work Yeah, and it's really powerful as I say it's the same it's it's not to say that therefore we end up with pods of only very exclusive groups that everyone should only work exclusive groups that is not the purpose, but having a space where you can connect like that fuels your interactions elsewhere so we can be collaborative and and diverse and the way we should be working with organisations I think recognising the need for that is is really important as I say you know the proof is there the oldest one of the oldest networks going that seems to be doing really well for all of its members, the old boys network, where you get together in a club and you hang out and you you meet at a certain level seems to have done wonders say I just want to create a piece of that for us.

Graham Allcott 9:52

Yeah, like and I, I wish you well in in creating that and expanding that and also be quite good to smash up the old boys that work as well. The whole nother level.

Denise Nurse 10:03

Oh, absolutely. I like flipping tables. I don't that I mean the other, the other, there's so many reasons for starting it. And the only other reasons is I just got fed up I've been to my diversity inclusion for a long time and, and different ways of working the law firm Iran was all about flexible working and just trying to do things differently see a different way of having a workforce so that people wouldn't have to do what we're doing. And you can just show up as yourself and you're catered for and thought about. And but progress is just so slow. So I'm from the legal profession. And we have been talking about this for a long time. And at a certain level, you'll see the numbers of women and twin professional going up, considering that women have only just been allowed to become solicitors for just over 100 years, we celebrated 100 years, women were legally was actually illegal to be a lawyer 500 years ago, which is just crazy, right? So if any just got past that 100 years, and, and women can be in the profession. So we've now got to the point where entering the legal profession, you're now getting more women than men doing law degrees, etc, that we get this, if you want to call it a glass ceiling, if they get obstacles, whatever it is, you get to a certain point, and that just drops off a cliff. And partnership and leadership of the businesses and the firms running our profession are still Yeah, we're still trying to get to 30% women. And it's been said many times, but I will say again, we are 50% 51% of the population, there is no need for it. And there's there's no massive pipeline. But there is there are structural barriers that stop you going any further because of the way things were structured to support a male dominant with a certain familiar family structure way of doing things. So to change that from within, it's really hard work. And part of the thinking of background, this hub and it's just to change things from without rather than within, create something new show a new way of doing things. And that might be adopted by the mainstream, as they've done in so many other areas like they won't do it themselves. Once you see an outlier, doing it. Think of the music industry, you know, being disrupted. Think of all the industries that have been disrupted, they won't do it. When there is no motivation to do that when you're being successful. Even if you think it sounds morally right, there is enough motivation to make that change. If an outlier makes a change less successful, that becomes a driving force change. So by creating businesses set up differently from the start, you've got a motivator for change that momentum

Graham Allcott 12:48

is that there's that Derek Severs video where he talks about first followers, and so there's like the one crazy guy dancing in the field, and then one other person joins him. And that's the first follower. And then what I really like about that, that little three, three minute video is that then what happens then is the momentum gains and so you suddenly have 510 15 more people all joining him, and then during service discuss as in a very sort of throwaway way. But for me, it was one of the most powerful things about that whole. First one follow up idea is like, now that's the in crowd. And so that's the place that everyone wants to be. So if you were sat down, not wanting to get involved with something, because you thought that you'd look stupid, then that goes out the window, because now that's the cool thing to be part of. And so that momentum feels to me like, you know, that would, that would definitely be the thing to, you know, to sort of take this forward where they once you can start to to have proof of concept and start to gain a bit more of a movement, then that will definitely happen.

Denise Nurse 13:48

Exactly. I mean, the vision I have in my head is hugely powerful organisations, where 90% of the leadership is women, or 90% of the leadership is blue. So that will sound really strange to some notice if it sounds strange. Why? Because we're used to the opposite. Or something different. Yeah, that having those collectives all doing well or proving success just proves that can be done differently, as you say. And then there's then there can be collaboration that can be mergers that can be adoptions of new ways of doing things. And so that's the vision I have. I'd love to see that visually, a real change in the narrative and the change your provisionals. Business looks like

Graham Allcott 14:33

shakeout man and that feels like the legal profession is and professional services generally is definitely primed for disruption.

Denise Nurse 14:42

Yes, well that we've spoke focused at Black founders have on professional services in particular, and because in some ways it's a level playing field and that you can you get your qualification of whatever it is you become, you know, you move into finance or consultancy or Marketing. And there are as I say that there are more people coming in through the ranks and getting to university and coming out the other end with the professional qualifications. So you've got the starting point. And then what so it's just this really ripe fertile ground. Also, I think it's something that we do really well, in the UK, and we're in this changing landscape, we don't know what's happened, we've had obviously COVID, we've got Brexit. And one of the things that we do well, is professional services, we have some excellent official service output, and we contribute a huge amount to the economy. So I think, from a business perspective is a massive opportunity here to shake things up to encourage new models and new ways of doing things. And, quite frankly, I get it most things I, what I know, if I know it, that's where I'll start. And David and Rashida were professional services as well. So very opportunity to jump in there, make change. And the interesting thing has been, so we're not exclusively for lawyers. In fact, it's about anyone in professional services. So each group of 10, we're gathering groups of 10. And we put them together in a cohort. And then they commit to working with each other for 12 months at a time. So they meet the peer coach, they get access to information resources, those who've walked the walk, in their opinion, a few steps ahead, come back as fellows to share. But within that group of 10, they're from non competing disciplines. So education, marketing, HR environment property, and, and the same story is told no matter which professional you pick, it there isn't one that says, Oh, no, it's all working well, here, it's no very recognisable, that is a limit to how far I could go. Or the structure of the way the profession worked wasn't conducive. They like to be, there was a reason they started in the left.

Graham Allcott 16:52

So you mentioned part of the, the, the kind of seed for all this was obviously sort of looking to do something off the back of what happened with George Floyd and that kind of huge outpouring of emotion and intense and everything that happened. We're recording this summer 2021. So I'd love to know from you, just like what what you think is what you think has changed or not changed over the

Denise Nurse 17:20

last year, the number one thing I think has changed is we have changed a lot black people. That's what I hope. Certainly, that's what I feel in my circle, that we have changed, we have decided enough is enough. So those black founders have, but there are several level organisations and starts and people just trying to do things differently. Unfortunately, I don't feel the same about everything else. And I think, I think last summer was a collision of so many event life events happening at that moment, which created the catalytic moment. So in a world was on pause, it was all quite new. Social media allows the pictures to be shared very rapidly. So we can see very clearly there could be no grey area about what happened, how long it took them to die. The fact that he was you know, saying if you don't breathe fat, there were witnesses around to say stop, it was all played out. And as a world we didn't have much else to be doing at that time, because we were all locked in. And so everyone could collectively focused, it chimed with what was going on. There were so many reasons that I felt the universe had that moment happen the way it did, what we hoped would happen, I think, after that was the kind of outpouring of grief and action and the collective oh my gosh, we didn't realise it was that bad, we should do something would really be meaningful. So I remember watching all of the businesses making the commitments and the black squares, if you remember, it's always a bit sceptical about that. But hey, I'm all for good intention, and giving people the benefit of the doubt. A year later, I feel very strongly the agenda has moved on their pledges that were made, had no substance behind them, that doing the real work to make changes just a bit too difficult. So we started with the listening exercises, and many organisations I know went into, hey, we're listening. How did we miss this? This wasn't just about someone's murder, you know, this outpouring of people saying, you know that the meaty movement Actually, this is my, this is my daily reality. This is what it's actually been like working here. This is why I'm so upset because I carry this level of fear, or this level of racism, or I deal with microaggressions, or all of these things. And there was this wonderful moment, what's been what's changed has been the ability to have a bit more of a conversation at first, there was, you know, reading books, there was around our discussions about white privilege and being anti racist and all of these sorts of terminologies that weren't necessarily being discussed. federally before, so that's that was great. But beneath that, I think we've seen organisations that have struggled to make the real culture change that's required. If you want to make systemic change, it's after you've listened, then what you actually going to do. And to do different, you have to be different, in my view. And I think that is that is the struggle. And I think what's happened is, after a while, it's just it's gone back to, well, there are lots of it, the all lives matter, which is one of the things that came up. And I think that's what's happened, everyone's you know, then the next thing and the next thing and we can just put everything together, that's other and say, Hey, we collectively want to fix it, rather than the kind of allowing the space for the individuals, groups to be heard and to speak and for real change. And I say that, I mean, evidence for that for them. How I feel it's the people that I'm speaking to the, the organisations that are aware of, I know that lots of groups were spawned, and there was, say, this listening moment, but when it's come to the tangibles, and the tangibles would look like meaningful ways of moving people up the chain. So yeah, going, Oh, actually, I really do want to look at how we get more diverse leadership, and not just hiring a black person as the DNI person. But looking at all the other roles. That would be denote some, some real change the fact that on our football pitches, you know, we're still having this debate about whether it's okay for the football players to take the knee or not the booing and that that's the level of conversation says to me that things change the fact that our government issued a report that says there is no structural racism, and systemic racism, and there's nothing to see here. And aren't we doing well? tells the story. It's like, Okay. Okay, we see where we're at.

Graham Allcott 22:16

I agree with a lot of that. And I think the thing for me is, is that it feels like something that's just shouldn't like, in a way, it's, of course, it's political. But in a way, it shouldn't be politicised, right. So there's the whole taking the knee thing. And also, it feels like some of the companies in the States, you know, Basecamp and Coinbase, are making these statements. And it seems like what they're saying is we're sort of tired of listening, right? But that's kind of like the, you know, at the heart of that coin base statement about we're going to be purpose driven, or mission driven, or whatever it was. And at the heart of that base camp thing about, we will not discuss politics is like this, we shouldn't be saying that this is discussing politics, we should be saying this is discussing whether people feel safe and included and comfortable at work, right like that. To me, that's just not controversial. And, you know, the idea of the idea of base camps. statement, I think, I mean, it led to a lot of resignations at that company, but I, I would, I would say that that's like, in a way, it's just bad HR, rather than it being them de politics, right? It's like they, they've actually just shot themselves in the foot because

Denise Nurse 23:32

they change, I think

Graham Allcott 23:35

you you don't have a choice not to listen in, in those circumstances, because that's your community, like your, your workplace is your community, right? feels to me like there has been an acknowledgement in some companies, and in some places that I've interacted with, that there's a difference between racism being about a person's, you know, a person's bad view of race, versus racism being a structural thing that isn't necessarily contained in any one person's evil brain, but it's actually just a systemic thing that sort of exists. And I feel like there has been some progress on just understanding that, but I guess, I guess where it falls down is like you say, what do people do that and it's hard, right? This stuff is really

Denise Nurse 24:25

hard, and you have to do hard things. Yeah. And you have to have a vision to see the benefit of doing hard things. Not for tomorrow's numbers. But beyond that, and that's why I think the current leadership, many organisations might not be the ones to do that. But what if we change that's what makes the difference. If coin base comes out with those you know, statements like that, and then people stop working with them or they leave that makes a difference. If we all sit back and go It's too hard. And that's just the way it is which is how I think it was for a long time, including for black people. This is not a I think we'd all got to a point where we work collectively that this is just the way it is. And we'll all just carry on, or not all, but a lot of people, I do think last year was a wake up moment for that to say, actually, this is not just how it is or should be. And I think one of the great things to come out of this will be change changes the curriculum, really get into the nitty gritty of the stories and the conditioning that we perpetuate. So the toppling of statues, the discussion around why there is statues as discussion around the wealth, that our country is built on the discussion around the Empire, and what that really means and how it evolved. And part of us, collectively, I get to claim the Empire as much as anyone else in this country. And it's an uncomfortable past, to reconcile with, because it's part of what makes this country great and quotes. And part of what's collectively caused so much suffering across the world, we don't get to just have one part of it and not the other. Collectively, owning the story and telling all parts of the story is what I think is going to be the powerful piece that will create the change for generations to come. Just a proper understanding, I think so much of this is just ignorance, a real just the lack of any thought about how we are where we are. And so David on the show, whose work and all of the work of all these great historians who are really trying to piece that together for people out, like, you know, the mills are there were there for a reason, or buildings that the way they do for a reason we were all part of this economic triad of, you know, slavery and produce and the wealth that were built on is because we didn't pay for our labour. For many hits this, there's so much that if it was just talked about, everyone would just have a different understanding, I think, but to pretend that that didn't happen. And we were somehow magically, really, we've done really well in this country. And it would that was just a blip in the past. And we were not really in fact we did we abolished slavery, and aren't we? Aren't we great? Yes, tell the whole story and give everyone their voice. Back, if that happens, and I'm seeing some of that I'm working with one of the universities at the moment are really going route and branch that a project, going through every part of their curriculum to look at how they are teaching, whether it's from science to history to English, and what messages and what stories they're telling, and what examples they're using really doing that work. And as I say, That's hard work. Not everyone's gonna vote for it, it's going to be like, why do we need to do that? So the brave leaders who do that are the ones I salute.

Graham Allcott 27:42

It feels like there's, there's there's almost like a fatigue setting in in certain organisations. And I like what you said before about. There was a time where, like, people are just got to the stage of saying we're just going to, like, settle with this just being how it is, versus then sort of crossing that chasm into No, we're not going to sell set up for that anymore. And it feels like that fatigue needs to be to be able to be overcome in order to get a lot of organisations really much more focused on that. How, how do you keep up your energy around this? And how do you how do you how do you notice people in the black founders, networks that the cohorts that you're working with

Denise Nurse 28:27

everything, the key for me, it's really simple, you have to surround yourself with people who lift you higher, you have to take the time to be Hence, the need for black founders generally have to be in situations where you have got to have this discussion or it's going to be less comfortable, that make sure you're filling up your cup. So you've got a space or an outlet to have discussions with others to share, to talk to connect, and then that just will help you move forward. in your day to day, wherever you've got to do that. I mean, certainly for me, that's been on many levels what I've been doing over the last year, so black family has been a huge part of that. And I know I've had the privilege of not working for an organisation and creating my own, but creating a space where others can come and do that has been huge. And I've been doing that and in other things as well really noticing the need for the collective and for people to have a space to talk and to connect, and then to go back out into the world and, and kind of interact. So that and then all the basics. nothing ever changes in that, you know, keeping healthy exercise, walking, finding something to smile about life isn't all doom and gloom. You know, with all of these things we want to do is always because we're looking for something to bring us joy, whatever it is you're looking for in the world, right? You're looking for a feeling of peace or happiness. Why do you want to make this change because you want to feel happy, you want to feel better. So trying to feel better now ahead of time. Time is my number one tip

Graham Allcott 30:02

was that phrase I heard a while ago. Don't, don't calm down by fixing the problem, fix the problem by looking for those little micro wins in your day, you know, little micro moments of joy like to say, Yeah, really important. Okay, so I'm going to interrupt the podcast, which you know, I don't do very often. And that must mean I've got something very important to share with you. So what I want to share is I've got these two really big events coming up, and I would love you to join me.

Let's let's move on to let's talk about Halle Berry. So Halle Berry was the law firm that you refer to before that you started and then sold. And so how long was that journey from the starting point to so then you became the VP of elevate the company, right? And then exited from that. So how long was that whole journey?

Denise Nurse 31:18

That whole journey started in 2007. And ended in last year, in April 2020. So 13 years, so I qualified as a lawyer in 2000. The midterm millennium, yeah. And started in a city practice, for all the reasons we've just discussed, realised that that was not going to be the world I wanted to progress in and went to work in house for sky television. And actually as a place to work that was really enjoyable. It was certainly in my legal team, there were only 21 of us. But yeah, there were there was a nice diverse group that was run by a woman. It was I felt very comfortable that I felt able to progress. And Amanda meandering and meander, which we'll come back to, I stopped being a lawyer for a while became television present. Yes. Yeah, so we will talk about that. And that came about because I was at Sky, and they ran a competition. But what it gave me it was time at what I was no longer practising as a lawyer for business, it's time to decide again, whether I still love the law in that profession, I had this out ball, you can go and do something completely different. It's like deciding, would you marry your partner again, they recommend you ask us that's

Graham Allcott 32:41

probably a dangerous question for people listening to this.

Denise Nurse 32:47

Is that and the surprise was I said, Yes. You know, having been a lawyer for a while, which can be quite tiring. my thought process was I actually like the law. I like being a lawyer. But there are things that I would change, about the way it's practised. And so that, for me was the reason for starting Hey, Aubrey, richer co founded with Jambi. Patel, who had been his good friend of mine, we were trainees together. Eventually, she'd got to a similar point in her life, and had started, she started that the business that we had coffee, and she chews, figuring out what to do and looking for a partner. And we both had thought this makes sense, let's create the type of law firm that we want to work for, that I can buy into. So that's where we started coffee shops, and Soho house kitchen tables back in 2007. In West London,

Graham Allcott 33:40

did you have any moments where you had to sort of plot out your working relationship to make sure that it was separate from your friendship and just like navigate that whole? That whole thing of? Because essentially, when you go into business with somebody, you're quite quickly sharing each other's life savings accounts, as part of the deal? So did you have any conversations around that? And what were the boundaries that you sort of put in place around that?

Denise Nurse 34:07

Absolutely. So I'm a commercial lawyer by background Japanese, an employment lawyer, but it's one of my my big things is that when you start off in something to set those boundaries, and to it's not even boundaries, it's expectations. Yeah, things can change. But let's at least have the discussion. I'm always intrigued and still surprised at how many people don't have those discussions before they get into these unions, that it's all about the shiny thing they're going to do and people again, don't want to have the difficult conversations. So something champion I had right from the start and we talk about our union as like a marriage. So having brought up that analogy, it was like that, you know what, then she knows him up as much about me as my husband worked in terms of you say your setup, sharing financial information. And but yes, I would recommend it there is a there's a legal contract for it. So there's your shareholders agreement or partnership agreement and I think people fall into the trap of thinking that some legal document that you have to have, because you're supposed to have it, and we'll think about that again in 20 years time, or we're going to sell Yeah. So my process is different to that. And then, you know, thinking about what you do in productivity, I find you get so much done so much quicker, once you just have this conversation, which is a one pager, just looking at why you're doing it, you know, and asking each other, what's the purpose, and you'll assume the other person is on the same page as you and they very rarely are. Your my purpose was, I said very clearly, I'm really interested in running a business, I want to know what it's like to build something from the start grow it and get it to a stage where either I can sell it, or I can hire someone else to run it. And I don't have to be involved. janhvi was on the same page, there was a third business partner who that wasn't her dream, actually, what she wanted to do was really be involved and when it was like a partnership model. So that that's very basic conversation that the start had us all going, Oh, so I think it's gonna go in this direction, you think it's gonna go in that direction? What do we want to do, and we have to make a decision about what this is going to be. And then we look at what are reasons why we're for outside of business. So at that point in time, we were all single. But I wanted to get married and have a family at some point. And so the jamborees, we talked about that so then we decided that our friendship and our family would come first always. And if one person needed to adjust to look after that, then that would always come first. And we would find a way to make them one. So we very clearly had that discussion upfront. And then a guest, because we're lawyers, we always look at what's the worst case scenario. So we always had our, if this all goes wrong, what are we going to do plan? Yes, we had insurance to the help. And also our backup plan. You know how it is someone wants to leave that we shut it down. We both leave. We're not, you know, that was the basics. But we had to have that discussion and idea. And that saw us through difficult times that reminder, why are we doing this again, and I during that time, we tested all of it. So we both got married. Jambi had three children, then she went to live in LA with her husband. And I got married, but my two stepchildren so I became an instant mum moved to Southampton, so I could support them. And then I had my son who was born three months premature. And I had spent, you know, three months in the near and Nicky with him in the neonatal unit. So all of those things got tested, like, oh, how are we going to do this? How are we going to keep going? Or what are we going to do? But we're always able to come back to? Why are we doing this? This is our purpose. This is what we committed to? This is how we will make decisions. And it made decision making so much easier.

Graham Allcott 37:54

Yeah, tell me more about that thing you said. So if one of you wanted to leave, then you would both leave, and you'd shut it down. So so if you wanted to leave, but you didn't, then all of your work just sort of goes out the window at that moment. Right? It starts so

Denise Nurse 38:07

it goes out the window, but you go it's not a I can force you like that would be the starting point that that said that you're always in tune with what the other one wants, you could then look at, rather than this be Am I just someone trying to edge the other person out? Yeah. And thought process? Well, you want to leave so I'm good. All I'm going to encourage you to leave now.

Graham Allcott 38:33

So that then I have shares or whatever, yeah,

Denise Nurse 38:37

it takes it to a gym, and it means you start the conversation about actually what what do you really want to do? Why do you really want to do it from a different thought process?

Graham Allcott 38:45

Yeah, because I guess all of it really comes down to just being open with intentions. And also like, I mean, this whole podcast really is is, is you know about that interface between work and life and the values that we have in life versus in work. And just that whole thing of where life might take you in a different direction or mean that the business needs to serve you in a different way.

Denise Nurse 39:07

I recommend it. I recommend having that I do it in everything now. So black founders have we really talked about, we have that conversation, you know, upfront, it's a different organisation. It's nonprofit. So we very clearly talked about upfront, well, how much time do you actually have to devote to this as an exec? running it creating it? What's our plan? What if you can only commit so many hours and I can commit more? When do we want to hire someone? Will we ever pay each other? You know what is and should not just blindly run into these things and think you'll work it out later. actually do it at the start where you've got the blank sheet and get those parameters down, always encounter and then

Graham Allcott 39:44

also have my other thing that I would add to that is Yeah, do it at the beginning in that way. And then also have spaces where that's all you're talking about. So it's not a subtext through the thing that you're working on right now. It's like okay, where are we at and what's this For the last three years and like, really regularly and I think Elena who's my MD think that's ever my business partner. I mean, we we would do that really regularly where kind of once a quarter, we'd go on a big long walk. And then that really had to tail off through COVID, obviously. And we've tried to do that a bit on zoom. But I think there's just sometimes just no substitute for just either being in the room with someone or going for a walk with someone and just being able to be in that much more human to human taking a step back strategic headspace, rather than being kind of in the day to day, what's the numbers? And what's this and, and all of that. So yeah, I think keeping those things regularly is I've definitely found helpful. Let's, you mentioned you slipped in a minute ago. Oh, and then I became a TV star. Let's go back to that. So you're working for sky, and then you ended up winning this competition? So yeah, tell us about that.

Denise Nurse 40:57

Well, interestingly, I'm clearing out lots of things at the moment. And I found back in 2003, I decided, myself a why but I decided to invest in a one day television presenting course, run by an amazing company called positive, I always pick them up and wonderful blend. McKinsey. And this is 2003. So I've been at Sky for a couple of years. And it's something I again, recommend investing in yourself. And I did it because I like dancing and performing as my hobby. So back to what brings you joy and keeping joy as part of your life. And so it's always done that. And I was doing a lot of charity work and working with young people and dance. I'm hosting events as part of my hobby. So I think I just decided that would be a nice thing, because I was enjoying it to invest in to get some skills. I thought nothing of it did it for the day, and didn't think much of it. But then a year later, this poster went up at work that said, Can you cut it? Do you think it could be the next presenter and at the time sky, we're trying to make sky feel less corporate for all of the support services. They are like we are a TV and media company, it was James Murdoch in charge. And let's do something so that the people in the suits in the office and legal or behind the call centre desks in Scotland can get involved in our purpose. What do we do here, we provide entertainment. So I entered again, in that spirit, this will just be fun. But as it turned out, it was a serious competition. I made it to the top 10. So the various rounds and in the top 10. Four of us had all done that same television presenter was that interesting. So skills that you learn and we didn't know we'd all randomly decided to do it for whatever I guess we will work to the TV companies that must have been something in our DNA. But that invest in yourself was actually paid dividends, I think so skills. But once you're in the top 10, you made a show reel and then you were voted on as to whoever got the most votes got an opportunity to present. You know, on TV. So I presented a press junket, which is doing some interviews for a film, think of that scene in Notting Hill, which I know is really old now. But in a hotel room, and the stars are there. And then journalist, author, journalist, journalist, I've got to be one of those journalists for a day. And but I was also offered the opportunity to screen test to become a weather presenter. And I said, No. What? I'm a lawyer, I'm talking about my you know, my love for law and how much I loved my job. And then I was in a and then then went on to do something else say, my brain had severe cognitive dissonance that it could not marry up this idea of I'm a lawyer, and I could be a weather presenter. So I said no, which is unusual for me. I'm usually want to do things. And they said, Why don't you just screen test, have fun? When I got back to the principle of having fun? It's like, Well, sometimes you don't think I'm wasting your time. That Okay, I'll have a game. So I had to go. And I did actually enjoy it. And I learned something. So then I thought, well, if I was going to be a weather presenter, how would that work? Because I can't leave my career to start the bottom, a bit of a TV career, just I've got a mortgage now. And what happened is I was given six months to convert. So it was made to work for me, I could go and be a weather presenter for six months and then go back to law. But as the universe would have it, I never went back to my legal job. I became a full time weather presenter for Sky News. And then I got an opportunity to become a presenter for the BBC. So I presented escape to the country a property show for seven years. And, and all of that I did was launching and building hell break. So for a while I had a multitrack career. And it was great what I learned I learned so much and then I learned that it can be other things other than the label that I attached to myself. University You know, I'm a lawyer, and that's who I am. And that's what I do so well no, you're not, you can be this other thing as well. And then teamwork and love working with TV crews, I love working on productions. for that moment of, we've all got to come together to create something, you have to get past the obstacles, you have to get past egos, you just have to make this happen. And, and I like storytelling. So I loved escaped to the country working with beings couples, who are trying to change their lives. By moving to some often places they've never been, they've only been like, for a weekend before, for them with like, I'm gonna move my whole life and go live in this village who this dream has always intrigued as to what would make you want to do that. So a lot of fun.

Graham Allcott 45:44

And I think I read somewhere that you you put that on hold to have your kids.

Denise Nurse 45:50

Now now that's true. As I mentioned, my son was born in 2013. prematurely. So he was we have no reason no idea why but I was only at the end of my second trimester. And help we was growing and doing really well. And and Jambi already moved to LA, I really moved to South out. And I was doing the TV presenting. And so at that moment, something had to give. And, and TV required me to travel around a lot. So I focused instead of being very host to my son, and then put all efforts into helping and and to be fair at that point, we then grew it quite rapidly.

Graham Allcott 46:33

Yeah. Do you think it's something that you go back to?

Denise Nurse 46:35

For sure? For sure. Never Say Never?

Graham Allcott 46:38

Yeah. Never say never. So you've just had this really interesting career with with lots of different facets to it. I wonder if you've got any? Because obviously, part of this broadcast also is about productivity. Do you have any, any sort of common, I guess, you know, sort of common techniques or common approaches that you find if worked across all those different different sort of areas of work that you've been part of, in terms

Denise Nurse 47:07

of the why I do the various things and I think knowing your why and what you love is important. So the B, opportunity to, to create something new, or do something differently has always been important to me. So we've held we we weren't just a law firm, we were about flexible working. So finding a way to, to change people's lives is what I was was the thing that I I love, and helping them to tell a new story about who they are and what they are. And when not. So whenever there's a difficult moment, and there are always plenty. And when I think what do I love about what I'm doing, that is my kind of guiding force that I'll keep doing it. If I don't have an answer to that anymore. That's my time to move on and do something else. But if despite the noise, despite the person who was upset that day, or the contract that you didn't win, or whatever the thing is, that's not going well that day, if I can go and what that what do I love about this and how great it was, I loved working with lawyers and helping them to create a new dream life with escaped to the country it was I could say being with these people, again, their dream life with black founders up, is helping people move on to their dreams from doing that, and happy and the rest of it will fall into place. So I recommend that just just being really honest with yourself about what is it you love? What is the thing that when you're doing that, you know, time stops and you're no longer clock watching or are stressed out. And that that is different for everyone. That's That's the beauty is that some people, it's your numbers and your spreadsheet, something is something else. And in terms of managing all of it, I would say managing my brain has been the number one thing I've had to do and had to learn. And so very early on, I have worked with coaches and I've worked with, as I said, joined networks, with always the view of setting aside time to work on the bigger picture of what I'm doing. And not getting too sucked into all of the details because the details will keep coming in. We'll always be more. But setting aside that clear time to go, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What's the biggest strategy? How can I look at my thinking to make that more effective. It's practice that I keep. And then I'm here doing what I love making sure there's always joy, making sure so keeping up the dancing, still head out for some dance classes, or just send a musical and go crazy in the kitchen.

Graham Allcott 49:43

It feels like there's two or three really common themes just hearing you talk. So there's this whole like pursuing your joy and being really intentional about choosing the things that are going to bring you that joy and then something about which I think overlaps with with What also brings you joy, which is this idea of people coming together and creating stuff and changing stuff that just feels like kind of runs through, you know, everything that you've talked about as well. And I love that idea that you've talked about before about being around people that, that fill your cup, which is obviously what you're doing with, with black founders, how but it's also something I think, it feels like you're really conscious of doing that for yourself, and just making sure that you have that in your life, which is usually inspiring. And then one other thing I wanted to touch about before we finish with, just before we press record, I was talking about the book that I'm writing at the moment on kindness. And one of the things that you said is Yeah, I think I'm probably a kind leader. And we were also talking about how it's often a real struggle to, for people to think about who the leaders have been in their life who've been kind. So I just love to love to hear from you on what what you think kindness looks like in leadership and why you think it's important.

Denise Nurse 51:03

And then we will have a short discussion before we start recording and such a great question. Because when you first said it, I thought the answer should be obvious. But I've been sitting with it thinking what truly is kindness? And is there such thing as a kind leader, really, who elements of kindness at some times and not in others? And isn't everyone a mixture. So it's actually sport like this will have loads more questions in my head. But I think kindness comes from Firstly, kindness to oneself, that great leaders who never learn, or who practice the art of being kind to themselves have the ability to be kind to others. If you are running yourself to the ground, if you are not saying very nice things to yourself, if you are, if you are being your own worst enemy, it's hard actually to be to offer kindness to others truly, because though it will come from an awkward place. So I think I think leaders who are able to do that are the ones who show true kindness, and then there's, there's that basic skill of listening, which I think is truly time truly allowing people to be heard. in whichever way they show up, which requires bravery to do that. But that is kind of for someone that pointless. And then to consider their viewpoint. And, and, and really do that as a, as an act as a real active thing to really take into consideration someone else's viewpoint. Even if it's uncomfortable, and I don't like it. And, and to examine that, which comes back to being kind to yourself and having real agency of your own mind and your own thoughts to have that ability to sit with something uncomfortable here and then see what I can do with that and how I can make that work or not work or what that means for my organisation. And so those are my initial thoughts and thinking about who I thought was kind of laughing when you asked me because I think all I'm thinking of some really like tough leaders just before Yeah, who, who I liked, but would I describe them as kind of, maybe not? Why would I describe myself as kind. I think I did all those things, and listened. But I think kindness isn't a weak word. It's not. It's not kind. So walk over it. As I said, it comes from that place of really knowing and this and then sometimes being firm. And saying, this is what we're doing for the good of everyone, or for the good of you even and say that sometimes that means that they have any kind leader is is will make decisions in a client leader with a will walk the walk and do what they have to do sometimes and then and take the consequences. But there's so many things that come into it kind leadership I love. I'm a big fan of Oprah. And I don't know much about the intricacies of how she runs her businesses. But I love the way she sets out her purpose and her vision with her team. And she talks them about intention. So everyone knows what they're doing. Obviously, the kindness of knowing this is what we're doing here. And this is our guiding principle and this is how we we show up for each other. I think that's really kind of just being transparent.

Graham Allcott 54:41

She's also like, like empathy on steroids. Oprah as well. Isn't she like just her connection with people just like just how she builds that trust with people? I think he's Yeah, also just a really big part of kindness actually, as well. So yeah, well love to just pick your brain brains on there. That was great. And now I think maybe I'll come back and ask you some more questions on that as the book develops.

Denise Nurse 55:06

Yeah, I'm definitely going to think about a bit more. So it yeah, that and i'd love it. I've just thinking I just can't think of a book in on leadership about kindness is such a great topic. So, so you have a great journey on that. Yeah, that's,

Graham Allcott 55:19

that's what I'm hoping. And you're doing coaching as well. So then if you want to just as we finish, and just share where people can connect with you, and if you want to just share any more details of that as well, I'm sure people love to hear it.

Denise Nurse 55:32

Yes. So that's my next iteration of self, I've sold the business we talked about, and April 2020, was going to take a break and travel around the world. Well, finally, I'm finally travelling on Saturday. But anyway, gave me pause to think about what next and what brings me joy, and pulling everything together. Working with other founders, and helping them to scale their businesses. And find their path is something I'm really passionate about. So I am now offering business and success coaching. And you can find me It's really easy, Denise nurse.com. So just check my website, I do one to one, or I do a particular course that I'm running and the idea, and particularly working with women, but it's not exclusive, but I'm who I would have wanted it when I was in those early days of Calvary, just another business woman who's kind of been there, and has had some of those experiences. And then we talk about things like the things that can sometimes stereotypically be seen as women don't know anything about finance and knowing your numbers, and getting really comfortable around your data. So I come at, tackle all of that. And get, you know, the people I work with are really confident in being the CEO of their business. So knowing their numbers and their data and their marketing and all of that stuff, but from a very kind and empathetic view. But it's brilliant. I love helping others to make an impact. So anyone who's trying to do that, who wants some help, that's what I do.

Graham Allcott 57:05

Nice. I will put the link to that in the show notes as well. And just to say again, just thank you so much for being here and being on beyond busy.

Denise Nurse 57:13

Thank you for inviting me. You know, I'm a fan so, so delighted is a real honour to have been on the show with you today.

Graham Allcott 57:21

So there you go. Denise nurse really enjoyed that one. And just want to quick give a quick shout out to my friend Dave McQueen, who's also been on this podcast before. Dave is the other founder of the black founders hub and introduced me to Denise I've never come across Denise before, but just Yeah, what what a, what an inspiring outlook and just love her attitude and how she sort of takes on these different challenges and career guises and stuff and juggling all that with having a kid as well. Just Yeah, hugely inspiring, and just really enjoyed that episode. So just say elsewhere in my life things I'm pretty busy. I'm on the home straight, really with the first draft deadline for this new book, I'm working on kind, which is all about kindness in leadership. At the same time I'm running right now the kind of a leadership programme that you've probably heard me talking a little bit about on their previous episodes of being busy. And we're also gearing up for the launch on the fourth of november of six weeks to ninja. So if you want to get involved with that, there's still tickets. Basically what we do is over the course of six evenings, over six weeks, I just talk you through all the various aspects of productivity that are in my book, How to be a Productivity Pinja. So there's a whole bit about Inbox Zero, there's a whole thing about really getting weekly reviews, and habitual eyes as part of your work. There's a whole week on setting up a second brain and really having good systems and just getting everything in place to really get stuff under control. And to just reduce your stress levels at work. So if that is of interest, and there's a button that you can sign up for if you just go to Graham allcott.com forward slash links, you'll see the link on there for six weeks to ninja there's also a link on how to sign up to my mailing list and other links on there as well. So if you just go to grahamallcott.com/links, and you'll find everything there. And a really geeky thing, which is probably of very little interest to most of you, just to say so potent, which is the place we used to host our podcasts is no more and they tried to merge in with this other provider and it went really badly for us and we had a lot of work behind the scenes trying to resolve all but we are now with a cast. So when a new host I hope that doesn't mean anything for you. I hope you haven't even noticed. But just in case any of you having sort of geeky podcast kind of thoughts when it comes to beyond It might be that we've moved over to a cast. So if you notice anything that feels different, feel free to drop me a line and flag it up. Graham at think productive dot code at UK is my email drop me a line I'd love to hear if you notice any difference whatsoever now that we've moved to a cast a new host, I just want to thank Pawel for his production wizardry and patience with this week's episode and also Emily for all of our work behind the scenes on making this happen. And we are sponsored as ever by think productive. So if you're interested in training, coaching workshops for your team, go to think productive.com and we are all around the world. So wherever you are in the world, there'll be a think productive office near you think productive calm. That is it for this week's episodes. And you probably have noticed if you're a regular listener that we're back to being a two weekly podcast now rather than a weekly one. So we'll be back in two weeks time. And the night is a drawing in so yeah, if you want to help us to help you get through the winter, go to Graham allcott.com for slash links and sign up for six weeks to ninja and wherever you are in the world if it's starting to get darker and colder, just want to say strength to you for the weeks ahead and wrap up warm, stay safe, and I'll see you in two weeks. Take care Bye for now.