Changing Confidence with Lauren Currie
Graham Allcott 0:07
This is Beyond Busy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books including the global bestseller How to be a Productivity Ninja. And I'm the founder of Think Productive. We work with some of the world's leading companies to help people get stuff done, but more importantly, to help people to make space for what matters. Beyond Busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work. My guest today is Lauren Currie. Lauren is a serial entrepreneur with a background in service design, and she's the CEO and founder of upfront, an organisation helping women to tackle issues around confidence. Lauren is one of the most interesting and articulate speakers on subjects of gender and race and diversity. And on this episode, we talk about the recent goings on at Basecamp empathy and curiosity and what it meant to her to be awarded an OBE. There's also some really interesting insights around what it means to be busy. The importance of kindness and leadership and Lauren share some of her productivity. This is Lauren Currie.
Lauren curry, Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Graham. It's great to be here. Hi. Should we start at the beginning, which is let's start with your your your day job or your main activity right now. So you're the founder of UPFRONT, do you want to just talk about what UPFRONT is?
Lauren Currie 1:48
Sure, yeah, for this, this is the first time since 2016 that I've had that I've had one day job. I'm on week four, of having one focus, which I'm very excited about. And up front is an organisation on a mission to change confidence, not women. And we refined it and 2016. And we do work with women all over the world, to change their relationship with confidence. And we do that in three ways. One is through bonds. So bonds is the collective known for a group of women. We have a six week online course, which is our flagship product, and cohorts of bonds. Go through that programme. So the fourth bond starts in a couple of weeks. We also have a membership space, which is the global community bond for women who are really intentionally looking to build new muscles of confidence, visibility, advocacy, and content. So we run newsletters, we do keynotes, we talk on podcasts, to smart people like you. And that's up front.
Graham Allcott 3:01
Nice. And you said there at the beginning something which I think is really important, you're here to change confidence, not women. Do you want to just unpack that a little bit?
Lauren Currie 3:11
I'd love to, because I think it's one of the things that makes up front. Very different from the majority of the products and services that exists in the world around confidence that are that are aimed particularly at women and minority groups. Because most of those products, you know, you've kind of got the Tony Robbins Gary Vee, which is very kind of masculine, American, privileged, extroverted version of confidence. Then you've got the kind of Royal Academy School of Drama, breath and body work. group of products, which is valid, but I think quite out of reach for a lot of people. And the ones that do work with women specifically, are often built to put the onus on the woman to change and they are built in a way that is putting the women as the maker of our own fate with the reality is that a lack of consequence, a lot, a lack of confidence, sorry, self doubt, feeling like an imposter, all these things that are now becoming trendy, those are very natural consequences of not fitting. The white masculine, extroverted version of confidence we've all been conditioned to believe is the only right way to show up and that way. So our onus is on changing the systems creating new spaces and new systems that that embrace a whole wide range of leadership, sales, confident confidence sales. You know, when we talk about building a confidence revolution I want to have one With a million people, a million women by 2023, that's my, that's our new goal. And, you know, the demand, the demand is high, we have hundreds of women come through each bond cohort. And it really does. For many of them, it's the first time in their life where they've been introduced to the notion of intersectional feminism and privilege and understanding the huge role that race and class and gender and economic background and all these things, how do they affect? Who gets to show up? And what species and what we?
Graham Allcott 5:38
Yeah. And if someone was going to go through that programme, so it strikes me that there's a bond element of it is this sense of community and being able to explore some of these things and express these things with a group of like minded people, but then presumably, there's, there's almost like a sort of ideology or a kind of content, sort of focus to right, so what just describe what that would look like to someone if they were going to go through one of the bonds that you do?
Lauren Currie 6:14
Yeah, so the the kind of principles of the bond space is, first of all, one of high psychological safety and high trust. So you know, as you know, I've worked as a designer and a facilitator and worked on and around culture and leadership for a lot of years. So you know, I put all those skills into practice to create a community that feels safe very quickly, I'll be it, it's online, and often, more, most of the time that strangers or people who don't know each other, and, you know, often the feedback we get is that you have conversations in the bond, that you couldn't have a new professional environment, even if that was a good positive professional environment, just because a lot of these things are taboo, you know, whether that's around your religion, you know, fertility, money, an ageing, you know, a lot of things that really do impact women's confidence, rather, isn't really, it's not really the norm to have conversations about that stuff. And then similarly, conversations that you wouldn't really have with family or friends. Because, yeah, for a whole bunch of different reasons. So there's, there's one principle of high safety and high trust. And the other one is that, you know, no women experiences the world and experiences oppression and the same way. So we do a lot of work to help you look outside of your own lived experience of your gender, and your race, and really do work to understand what that experience might look like and feel like for other women who are showing up with the same challenges and blockers as you but have got their, you know, the kind of experience of experience of them becoming cheer for them have been very different. And then the third piece is that we don't put any emphasis on professional identity. And what that means is, in any given space, we have CEOs stay at home mums, unemployed people, students, team leaders, and everything in between rubbing shoulders with each other and the same bonds, and again, showing up with the same challenges and blockers. So there's an immense feeling of solidarity, very quickly, the one that's very welcoming, because we know for example, women who take a break from professional work to care or to have a baby or become a parent, the number one reason they say that stops them from going back into traditional work is a lack of confidence. You know, it's a very systemic nuanced thing. And you're working hard to create bonds in spaces that really hold space for that news. Hmm.
Graham Allcott 9:08
I love that idea that it's, you know, people showing up as humans rather than as pay grades, and there's, you know, there's no hierarchy and just the, the empathy that that would create, right for people who've been in a career for 20 years and haven't taken a career break for childcare versus the people who have and are just at a very different point. You were saying something before about how a lot, a lot of issues with confidence are the structural realities, then manifesting and they're kind of they manifest as, you know, these issues that that bring about a lack of confidence, and it's like, it's as much down to the systems as it is down to the people. And so I wonder it It feels like it's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing, isn't it? Because, you know, when you when you think about your sort of previous work, and I want us to talk about that sneak in a minute as well. But you you spent all this time designing systems. And now you're spending a lot of time helping people to, to navigate themselves through those systems. So how do you? Do you ever get to the point where you're trying to work with people, but actually, in the back of your mind is like, this whole system is screwed. So why do we even Why do we even trying to change people's approach? Because actually, the system is the bigger issue?
Lauren Currie 10:28
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a, it's a very real tension. And, you know, my point of view is, there's no place of neutrality in that you're either actively upholding a system, or you're actively breaking down a system to create a new one. And you know, where right up front sits in that is, first of all, one of the most powerful jobs to be done is to inform and educate women as to why they feel these feelings, they get this, they get the feedback to speak up to put yourself out there more, they get rejected for the promotion, even though they keep asking for it, you know, this constant feelings like they don't belong, are going to be found out whatever these symptoms might look like, it's helping them understand that that is not a problem that lies with them. That is not anything yeah, that they have created, or actually the as an individual have the power to fix in inverted commas. And that, in itself, is hugely liberating for lots of the women that we work with, it reminds me of that phrase, you know, the, the truth will piss you off, and then it will set up, you know, I think a lot of women who move through the world, absorbing these messages that, you know, you're responsible for your fate, you're responsible for your career, and you need to learn to work harder to meditate more, to ask for help to be more resilient, you know, whatever it might be. And, of course, there are lots and lots of things that as an individual you can do to increase your agency. And the pieces of that, that we focus on, are the pieces that are linked to privilege and power, particularly for white women and able bodied women, sis women, who are who have more power in these spaces than their black or brown peers do. And that's when I think, you know, it's not, you know, I do get I get cross at these kind of click Beatty, BuzzFeed, headlines of, you know, there's no point in even having conversations, you know, stop telling women anything, because this system needs to be fixed. It's like, the system is made up of women, people are what make the system. And right now the women that are coming through these bonds, in the next two 510 years, you know, they're recruiting people, they're building companies, they're creating more wealth. And when you when you start to do that, with awareness, and an education and intentionality around, how do we break these toxic norms that we have around confidence needs to look like being the loudest voice in the room? You know, that's that's how those norms get broken. And I fully believe that it's possible.
Graham Allcott 13:33
Let's just do some positive dreaming for a minute. So what does what does a good future of work look like for you, if you think about big, big vision off the back of that, because the inspiring part of that is, suddenly you've got all these people that are then going to create that future? What What could that look like? What do you want to see?
Lauren Currie 13:51
Gosh, what a question positive future of work, I think looks like feminists and its values and practices and behaviour. It looks intersectional not genuinely, genuinely diverse. and inclusive. And fair, you know, I think things like universal basic income, universal basic health care. And then I think other budget stuffers around the planet, you know, vegan? sustainable?
Unknown Speaker 14:33
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 14:34
Yeah. Yeah. For me, I am a big believer in universal basic income. And I heard it talked about on a podcast A while ago, that yes, universal basic income, but also universal basic services. So stuff like buses are free trains are free, like that's the way to, you know, to really improve the economy because what you then create is this sort of system where like, everybody has the FAA money, right? So everybody has, you know, just a basic level of income, that if you're really unfulfilled in a job, then you get to decide to leave, you're not, you know, so worried about making the rent next month that you can't. And like, I, that's the thing that really inspires me, right is the idea that you can get to a future where people are treated with dignity and respect and fairness, but also people have the ability to do the kind of work that they really want to do, and putting their skills to good use. You know, that's the thing that really inspires me.
Lauren Currie 15:36
Yeah, I mean, I think I agree. And I think there's, that brings up two things for me, like one is a big part of this future world where you and I have made up all the rules as childcare and infrastructure for families and children. And I know that we've talked about that before, you know, a huge reason why we've relocated away from London to be here. And in Sweden, as they, they are from a policy level built to support women and families and parents to thrive, because we all have the data that we are looking at around gender inequality. And the racial inequality gap, the racial wealth gap, the gender wealth gap, all comes back to women being forced to step out of the traditional workforce, or have children or care for elderly relatives. And you know, that foundation is a game changer in Sweden are a great example of, of getting that right. And then I think the other thing around the king of a few money and people being able to do work that fulfils the purpose is a huge yes to that. And we need to also look at the women who are working the Zero Hour contracts, you know, they'd never have a job where they had a desk, you know, there's no huge amount of discrimination, sexism, racism, and women who are just living incredibly precarious lives at the helm of usually male bosses when they're completely unprotected. So there's lots Yeah, for sure work to be done.
Graham Allcott 17:26
Shifting gears slightly. So let's talk about your the early part of your career, which is how we first met, we're trying to figure this out. When we spoke the other week is what what we were both doing in a room and CV, I can't actually remember. But you were you doing a presentation, and I think pitching for, like, check for a project around around leadership, but it was around service design. And it was when you were with your business partner, Sarah and snick. Yeah. So that for me, just when I remember being in the room with you guys are just being such a fan of your approach. And and, you know, and just your approach to design thinking and service design, and just this feeling like such an interesting area to work in. So dude, do you want to just talk about the history of snick and the sort of part that that played in your earlier career?
Lauren Currie 18:24
Yeah, so it was my first business setup when I was 23. from a place of total naivety, I had no idea really was the best
Graham Allcott 18:33
place to set up a business from isn't it? Exactly.
Lauren Currie 18:38
And, you know, I discovered service design quite early on and my, my university degree, I studied product design engineering at Duncan Jorgenson art school, and the and you know, I went there on a very clear mission to be a product designer, you know, I was going to be the next Steve Jobs is going to make a product and get really rich and change the world. And then discovered this idea of surface design. The first time I heard about it was through the lens of design against crime. So the fact that you can, you know, you can use design in terms of high species are laid out how information is exchanged to prevent crime, and this just, yeah, blew my mind. And that was my kind of first. That was my first step and to service design. And you know, at that time, it was a very mature field. Still can find in its fi I wrote my thesis on service design, I made really good friends with lots of the key thinkers and authors in the field at the time, who were super generous and kind of gave me their time and opened up the discipline for me. And then, you know, doesn't take a genius to work out all the jobs were in London and I was extremely passionate about my local area. About when I grew up and about Scotland, so snick and my mum came up with the name. And then my, you know, my family played a huge, huge role and our early years, you know, they built the furniture nurse studio, and my mom used to make, she made all the targeting bunting for our first studio. And really, it was a whole, all of my 20s just worked my ass off for lack of a better phrase to really evangelise, because it was very annoying, as you see, it was kind of like Oh, is this is kind of a new a new combination of things that have already existed, you know, this idea that we need to design complicated customer experiences with the with the people that therefore in mind switch now it's like, oh, well, yeah. But, you know, even though it's still not commonplace, even though services is still a booming industry, you know, 10 years old. So yeah, we built a consultancy practice, one customer, to another customer. And, yeah, it was, it was my first it was my first business, I learned a huge amount. And, you know, now, I way I think about it is like design is my practice and my craft, that design is how I solve problems. It's how I think about things. It's how I see the world. But now I use that to build other things, rather than my previous businesses were about selling that process and that skill set or upscaling, or those in that skill set. So that's been quite a pivotal shift for me.
Graham Allcott 21:38
Are there any particular things that you look back on from that business in terms of like the work that you did, like particular changes that came about or just stories you can tell about how that design that thinking really changed stuff?
Lauren Currie 21:51
I mean, I think looking back, I can see that we, we really did play a significant role and showing what was possible. And I'm really proud of the part I played and service design being what it is today. And you know, I still get emails on a weekly basis from, you know, students I met and like 2010. Somewhere talking about service design, and I think that's really,
Graham Allcott 22:24
I think that's really special. And then we reconnected a little while ago, because we are both speaking on the same virtual stage at kind fest. Yes, I was, I wanted to, it was amazing, wasn't it? So I wanted to talk to you about kindness that just felt like a really obvious thing to talk to you about. So tell me what your thoughts are on why kindness is such an important thing for leadership and for business?
Lauren Currie 22:50
Yeah, it's something that I'm thinking about more and more, because Cain, this has got a really interesting relationship with confidence. And part of why we need to change confidence, I believe, as the kind of stories were told, and the stories we make up our own confidence is that you're you're either confident or your canes probably not going to be bought. They're not words that we often hear. And the same sentence. So I've been telling stories and have recall having conversations about what does being confidently canes look like, and this is what I talked about it came first. And then, you know, it's people have been super receptive to this idea of Yes, of course, you can be both and how, how unhelpful that we are given the message that you would you would have to be one or the other. And I think, you know, COVID-19 has, in many ways been our leadership tests. And the results have been extremely negative, you know, across all sectors, we've seen that there is a leadership deficit. And I think the leaders who have shown up and in the right way and the progressive canes we are people like just under Arden I started the weekend she got named the best leader in the world's greatest leader, and she is somebody who leads with kindness in a very intentional, purposeful way. I think we also see it in the business world like my favourite one of my favourite case studies as a CEO of Thompson's which is of course, yeah, a family or generation business. And he talks a lot about their entire business model is built upon principles of kindness. And for me, upfront I I'm trying to role model what that looks like in my business in the hope that others will copy me so women who have got no income women who are on maternity leave can join bonds at no cost. me my partner have just launched or recently launched a new coffee truck business in England. And there were trialling offering people cheaper milk if they choose to try an alternative milk. And I think all of these things are, it's about being kind. It's about being kind to your customers came to your self cater your kind to the planet. And realising that it's not about or if like that kindness is a weakness. And I think, for my work up front, the most interesting bit is the difference between being kind and being nice. Yeah, yeah. And you know, we know that the etymology of the word nice is around stupid, dingy capacity. And actually, canes, this being caned is much more about, you know, everybody has potential, believing everybody has potential and showing up with intentionality who does. niceness is often weaponized against, particularly women and people of colour, as a way of forcing them to accept the status quo that isn't serving them. And I see a huge I meet lots and lots of women who are being held back by conditioning around niceness, because you know, if you grew up as a little girl, you are taught that people liking you and be nice. Everybody comes first and comes first even before yourself. And that's really harmful.
Graham Allcott 26:42
Yeah, I think so. Often, kindness and niceness are just confused as one in the same. And I'd say a couple of things. So that one is, you will often hear people described as overly nice or too nice. It's very rare that you hear as a criticism, someone's too kind. And if you know if it is, oh, you're too kind, like it's a great thing. Yeah. And also, like that whole thing about niceness is all about likability first being liked and pleasing people first. And then the purpose of what you're doing come second. And I think kindness is the other way around. I think kindness is where you put the truth and the purpose first, and then you work out the way to deliver that in the most dignified possible way. Right. So in a way, it's like it's, for me, like kind of nice, almost opposites, rather than being two things that are very similar. They get confused, right? Yeah, I think it's really important.
Lauren Currie 27:41
Yeah. And I, I agree, and I often have to remind myself to is like, I'm not building this business to be like, and fight. If I'm doing my job properly, though, I'm probably going to be person, some people off. Whereas I know that I will. I will always be Kay. And I will at least always try to be games. And that is really helpful frame framing for me.
Graham Allcott 28:08
Yeah, for sure. And let's talk a bit more about what, what just popped into my head there is when you saying, sometimes, if you're doing your job properly, you're going to annoy some people. That might be a nice segue into the base camp stuff, because it felt like and we both we both made little interventions that week when base camp made its infamous blog posts. And what was interesting for me, is my email newsletter goes out every Sunday, I usually get one or two unsubscribes every week. And that week, I had seven unsubscribes in the first three hours that went out. And that email, which actually referenced your video, was was basically me saying, you can't, you can't just build an organisation where you where you say, we're going to only focus on purpose, and we're not going to listen to, you know, any more debate about race and about gender, which was just really the kind of crux of what people got annoyed with, with that Basecamp blog posts. So I just thought the way you the way you talked about Basecamp, which from a someone with a design background, and me with a productivity background, we've both been fans of what Basecamp do for a long time, right. But you talked about it in a way that was still you know, we're still reserving that, that kindness for them. You were also being kind to the other people whose work and reactions you'd read about it. He were referencing and you're pointing people back in other people's directions and not trying to say all these ideas are mine. It's like I've read this other thing and there's this other thing that's really cool. So, do you want to just talk a bit about your reaction to that base camp blog post? And also, I'd love to know if you had, if you had, did you have a backlash to that as well?
Lauren Currie 30:10
Yeah, backlash, I don't know. But I was actually really pleasantly surprised at the amount of engagement and share, like a lot of people shared that video that I made. And you know, people like yourselves, you know, a few people, putting it in their newsletters and stuff meant that people who didn't know me phoned me and got us out the video. So yeah, and I can't say that I noticed backlash. But I definitely notice when I share posts that are visual imagery of black and brown women's faces, they get less engagement than photographs of white woman's faces. Do you mean just on Instagram and stuff? Yeah.
Graham Allcott 31:00
Yeah, well,
Lauren Currie 31:01
and it's hard because, you know, I'm, in terms of data and numbers, tiny fish in the in the big Instagram pool. But I think when you look at the people with, you know, millions of followers in the much bigger platforms, we see the same, we see the same patterns, especially for black and brown women themselves, having their accounts deleted, tact. Pictures being removed. So there's definitely racist bias and algorithms. I don't know, you know, I don't have expertise to pull apart, what's the algorithm, what's the individual follower, but all I do know, is there's definitely a problem there to be solved. And, and in terms of Basecamp, I mean, actually, really floored me the day that it came out. And I think, you know, and I say that, say, dyeing my whiteness, and the fact that I could choose to turn that off and go do something else if I wanted to. And I know for a lot of the black and brown people listening, that's, that's not a luxury that they have, especially the people who work for Basecamp. And
Graham Allcott 32:25
well, that was one of the lines in that was one of the lines in that piece that really annoyed me in base camps blog post, Jason for his blog post, because it was like he was he was saying, it was the framing of it was, was a very white frame. And it was like, you know, we we shouldn't have to be distracted by the worry of whether we are checking into this conversation or checking out this conversation, or whether we need to intervene or be seen as complicit in all the rest of it. And that was the first thing that I thought it's like, if you're black, and you're reading that, or if you're a woman, you're reading that, you know, if you're disabled, you're reading that, like you're reading that, without the privilege of just being able to turn it off or check out or, or just you have a little worry about whether it's a bit awkward. It's like it's politics that affects your pay and your, your, you know, like possibility of being discriminated against, and all kinds of stuff right?
Lauren Currie 33:19
As as racist it just fundamentally as and it's to, to lead with a notion that two white men who run an organisation can decide what is politics and what is not is fundamentally flawed running our business as political. I don't care if you make big beans or productivity software is political. And by taking a stance to say, we're only going to engage with the politics that are relevant, like politics, like privacy laws, for example. You know, they wrote a book about remote work. Work is political, where you work, how you work, people's access to work, how people get compensated for work, how decisions are made at work, all of that is political, everything is political. And the really, the really scary thing about it is, first of all, because of who they are, and I get that, on paper, they're small, like 60 employees, but they are one of the world's biggest small companies, like their digital footprint and their influence in their power is much bigger scale than their actual revenue or our staff numbers. So that means that they set a precedent, it means people who listen to them, it means people copy them, and I guarantee there will be people right now, as we speak, who are using that as a flag to put in the ground and say, Basecamp I've done it, we're going to do it too, and we probably will Don't read about them because they will not be people who want to work in the open and want to put these things online. But they have given people permission to copy them. And I, my hope is that these businesses will die and they will die quickly. And for anybody who is listening, thinking, Well, what do I do about this? First of all, you know, your money, your power is in your, your time. And if you're a bass customer, please choose not to be anymore. There are lots of alternative software companies that offer the same thing. And then I think the other thing is, you know, I know that that articles flying around millions of slacks and Microsoft Teams, there's lots and lots of teams having conversations about, oh, have you read this? What do you think? And, you know, I wonder how many white people stood up and said, Well, what do what do we think about this? Yes, our stance on politics, what's our stance on feeling distracted by the fact that black people are being martyred every day, you know, and I really hope that we step up to that moment, because that's when good will come of it. I mean, of course, since we went since we last spoke, and since I made the video, and you wrote your newsletter, the majority of the leadership team have left, which is great. And the fact that they had the audacity to offer was it six months pay or something? I imagine thinking, yeah, very many people would come up on it, and then the majority of the leadership team dead. So I hope that that serves as a lesson to anyone else who's watching, but really, I just feel extremely, extremely sad, just deeply sad for the people who have dedicated their life's work, to teaching leaders in organisations. Why? What diversity inclusion is, why it matters, what it looks like. And, you know, one statement from a company like them can just sit that work back. years. Yes, yeah. And I feel really sad about that.
Graham Allcott 37:34
The sad thing that I felt about it, and I talked to a couple of people who work in that space after the base camp blog, and it seems like there's, there's a little bit of a backlash going on right now, where lots of white people are saying, hey, we've spent a year talking about Black Lives Matter and diversity. And, you know, we're kind of bored, you know, we've had enough of that. And that's kind of what it felt like to me. Yeah, you know, just just getting all those unsubscribes just way more than normal, and just being like, oh, and then, you know, I just felt really down about that. And then I had a couple of really nice, supportive, you know, email replies back in the other direction, but they sort of came through the next day, and I had like, this whole evening of just just feeling really down about it. And when I've spoken to other people in that space, who were, you know, doing a lot of that culture work and leadership work in companies? Yeah, like it that it seems to, it seems to me that that, you know, what they're saying is there's, there's just a little bit less of an appetite now, to have those conversations because people have been having them for a year and they just feel tired. Well, that's
Lauren Currie 38:45
your definition of privilege, like, white person feeling tired? It's like, Well, yeah, because we don't know what it's like to be tired. Really, when you when you when you listen to stories from people of colour, you know, there's generations of exhaustion, bias prejudice. microaggressions. So, you know, I think anybody who is feeling tired needs to really do the work to examine how the existing system has benefited and when this has benefited them.
Graham Allcott 39:32
Yeah, and, and also, you know, when, when there are the opportunities and in, in the sort of day to day work that we're doing, we need to also just make sure that we're not tired, right, and that we're keeping up that keeping up that work in keeping up those conversations, and then just mentioning these things, and, you know, trying to change them.
Lauren Currie 39:55
Yeah, I mean, you know, tired. It's probably a whole other podcast. I'm sure that There is actually an amazing Instagram. I think there are, I'm not sure exactly what structure they are, but they're called the nap ministry. They create amazing content educating, particularly for people of colour around the relationship between rest and capitalism. And and it's something that I, you know, really early stages of getting my head around and, and learning but I, you know, I absolutely do I feel tired Yes, do I have days where I need to not work because I'm so tired, yes. But it's understanding where that tiredness comes from and how and who to share that tiredness with in a way that is sensitive to the context and the time, the times that we're living in. Yeah, I also see it the other way where, you know, there's like, frantic urgency to you know, I must be, be be my best activist self, every minute of everything. And that is, that's an invitation to, to burn out and to your mental health suffering. And Sophie Walker talks about this in a really beautiful way in her book five rules for rebellion, which I love and recommend. And she talks about this idea of it's like a ferris wheel. And you know, on the days, when you won't wake up and you have energy, you need to fucking go to work, and you need to work for the people who don't have the privileges that you have. But on the days, when you're tired, you must rest and you must rest knowing that somebody else woke up that same day with energy. And you know, and so it keeps going round, because I meet so many amazing, brilliant women who are, you know, fighting, intense, complex causes, and they are making themselves l through the work.
Graham Allcott 42:07
Maybe that's a nice little segue to just talk about work life balance and productivity. So for you, one of the things that really stood out in that video you did about Basecamp was, I think you said something along the lines of, I have just lost sleep for two nights thinking about this and worrying this round in my head. And it just strikes me that you have a just a really deep, I mean, it feels like you're a deep thinker, and you have a deep sense of empathy. And I bet that's a blessing and a curse for you. So I just love to hear more about that. Just what does that look like for you personally? And how do you? How do you try to give yourself permission to be at the bottom of the Ferris wheel sometimes and just take time away? And?
Lauren Currie 42:51
Yeah, I feel seeing that as an accurate description, you know, I think I feel my feelings very deeply. And that coupled with a very powerful urgency to contribute, which I've had since I was a child, and no amount of therapy can help me pinpoint one day one day, so
Graham Allcott 43:15
you don't know where it comes from?
Lauren Currie 43:17
Not really, okay. Because you know, that I grew up in a very loving sporting family environment. My parents relationship with my academic success was one of all we can ask for is to try your best. You know, they, my mom used to put a bookmark in my book, like a few chapters along and say, you know, you need to put the light out when you get to this, when you get to this bookmark, or I just set up on my reading, and they would have seen that you really need to know, that's what I was super young, you know, into my teenage years, that would be like, I'm going to come and cause this laptop, but now you need to stop and so it definitely wasn't an external pressure. I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff around Catholicism, I went to Catholic Primary School in a Catholic secondary school and I think they instil very toxic narratives around good or good and Bad's which I think again shows up differently for different genders. But that's also a whole other conversation but yeah, I Where, where, where where I am is I do feel things and I care a lot about a lot of stuff. And I probably learned a bunch the hard way you know, whilst building snick I ended up and hospital had you know, cut Call an ambulance scary times. And that was you know, tell me what's your stress your body's just responded to stress,
Graham Allcott 45:01
when I was that just from where were you just working like stupid hours? And yeah, we just, I just worked all the time. And you didn't have anyone to come and close the laptop like you did when you go home? Yeah. And also,
Lauren Currie 45:15
I was like, in my mid 20s. So I had lots of energy. I didn't have any children. Yeah. And I also love it. You know, I really, really love my work. And that is, you know, when you talk about work life balance, I really don't think there is such a thing. I think there's always trade offs, there's always a sacrifice is definitely shifted. For me. I mean, two things play a huge role in where I'm at no one is, of course, I'm a mother. So I have a young son who's three. And that's definitely affected my energy levels, first of all, but it's also affected my, like, I don't feel able, everything can have preak over times, like I don't feel able to get on a flight and say, I'm gonna go to this conference for three days, like, I don't want to be away from my baby for three days. Yeah, that's new. Like, that's a new thing. And the second thing is my partner and the relationship I have with my partner and how we've designed our family life is that he is the sole. He's the primary carer, and he was doing a PhD. When we decided to have a baby, he quit his PhD. And his career has suffered from that, you know, we suffer all the same things. It's just gender reversed. Yeah. And because of that, I'm able to work the way that I work. But I'm, much like, I don't work weekends. I usually don't work evenings, I don't have email on my phone. I don't have notifications on my phone. And I really don't do stuff that I don't want to do anymore. Yeah, I think I'm definitely at that place. Which I know, that's a huge theme in the bond. And that's, you know, a lot of it takes work to get to a place where you feel okay to say, Thank you, but no, thank you. And,
Graham Allcott 47:21
and also, that's not it's, it is a question of money and financial security, but it's also just not a question of money and financial security is it is it but it's about how you see yourself and your, your, your level of comfort and confidence to be able to say no, as well.
Lauren Currie 47:38
Totally. And it's really complicated. And, and, you know, I always say like, I wish for all these Forbes 30, under 30. And I made my million dollar revenue, like, Can we see the Can we see your spouse's paycheck? Can we see, we see the wealth, the net worth of your parents, because we know like all of the data shows the number one thing that influences your career, and success in the vertical almost as your parents wealth. And I grew up in a working class family and a really poor area of Scotland. My partner is from Liverpool, you know, we don't have big trust funds and big safety nets. I am the breadwinner, and I'm the sole earner in our house. And, you know, that feels, I swing between, I want to tell the story, because I know, it's not old enough to daini to tell the story about you know, Danny, to tell the story about every aspect of this, I'm actually just going to keep my head down and go on with it. And you know, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is. Yes, sometimes I get met with like, Oh, my God, your partner's amazing. And you're so lucky. And I'm like, or this is, you know, this is just very normal. And most women in the world are doing this have done this at some stage in their life. And they don't get put on a pedestal until but they're amazing.
Graham Allcott 49:17
I've had it. So I'm a 5050 single dad. And I've had it honestly about three times in the last week, where people have said, I it's amazing that you do 5050 and it's like, yeah, I have this exactly the same as he was like, no, it's it's not only is it So normally, this is mathematically normal. It's like, where do you half the work immediately? Yeah, but that shouldn't be a thing that I'm being sort of commented on because of Yeah, and empathise with the whole background thing to do as a free school meals kid. But yeah, we weren't let's let's not get into that. I've got a couple of things I wanted to talk about before we finish. We've got about five minutes and so my friend asked me last night said what you're doing This weekend, I said I'm recording a podcast and and she said, Who's it with? And I said, is with Lauren curry. And she said, Oh, Lauren curry ob. And so it strikes me as a thing that it's like, you know, like you put that on your social media handles, and it's a thing that you're deeply proud of. So I just love to hear about how that came about. And what does that mean to you that ob? ob?
Lauren Currie 50:26
Yeah, of course. So I was nominated by a brilliant woman who actually I've met a bunch since but hadn't met at the time itself in a blows my mind. And she was a civil servant. And she nominated me and I think the process is you then get a whole bunch of different letters of nominations from different people. I don't know who wrote the letters, I've never read the letters. But I got a letter through the post, to tell me that I'd been nominated for an OBE for my services to design and diversity. And I was invited to Buckingham Palace, December 2017. To collect my award at this stage, I was like, nine months pregnant. So I have my picture with Prince Philip, which actually, I really love. Because I can show up this and say, like, you met the queen? And
Graham Allcott 51:28
if if you did if your water's broken in the palace or something do you get? Do you get like special privileges? Like you're allowed? Yeah, so
Lauren Currie 51:36
this is Paris. Yeah. So this is a whole thing. They have paramedics on site. Yeah, because you can't give birth on royal soil or there is the opposite, right? Okay. There would be consequences of that. So luckily, that did not happen. And privileges that come with our wars. I can get married in St. Paul's Cathedral. I can carry a sword. I can have sheep over London Bridge or something very strange. But I have you know, I have never been an I am not a fan of the royal family. I think they are at odds with gender equality, they are at odds with racial equality. They are built upon foundations of white supremacy. But I think it is possible to pull those two things at once. And the reason that I decided to accept the award was firstly, had I rejected it. Nobody would have noticed like, I'm really not famous enough for that to make any sort of headline like, I'm not. I'm not Judi Dench, or,
Graham Allcott 52:54
you know, and Judy Blume. Michael Sheen gave his back to me recently. Yeah, but we all know who Michael Sheen is. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's my point. Yeah.
Lauren Currie 53:05
Hey, maybe one day I'll give my back. And this but I, I decided that the work that I'm doing this, I hope enables me to be taken seriously in spaces where I wouldn't normally be taken seriously, it enables me to get a seat round a table. And I know that I can trust myself to ask the questions and make other people around that table uncomfortable if that's if I'm ever in that situation. And the last thing as it made my mum and dad's really, really, really, really happy and proud. My dad still gets teary, but we talk about it. Yeah. And, you know, my dad works for our local council. And I know he's super proud of me. But could he really tell you in detail? what it is I do every day? Probably not. And this means that, you know, he can go to his mates, and in the office at work, and everybody he needs knows why Normally he is. Yeah, it's like a really special thing for him. And that felt really important to me.
Graham Allcott 54:21
It's very easy to have high minded sort of views against the awards. And then you think about like if I if I was offered one and then I turned it down, and then I would think about my parents. Like, I just would feel so guilty about denying them that that day.
Lauren Currie 54:41
But you know, we're, we're having this conversation though. And I hope that people will listen to this and they'll think about no family, they'll think about what you know, all of these. All of these things are tiny, tiny ripples. You know, I really don't. If we take the stance that you know, we need to be Dorner before anything we do RC makes any difference, then we're gonna end up in a messy place. You know, it's like we all have, we all have agency and we all have power. And for the design community, you know, I think as far as I'm aware, it's the first award for surface design of that canes. And yeah, that's a big deal for service design. If not me, like, yeah, for service to shine.
Graham Allcott 55:27
We kind of share this slight nervousness about the fact that we're out there on the internet, putting out useful stuff that we hope will help people. And there's a lot of people who are also out there on the internet, putting out stuff and marketing themselves in ways that we really just don't like and relate to. And we don't want to be that. We've had conversations about that before. So do you have any particular rules for how you put yourself out there online, like things that you do want to do or don't want to become like, how do you how do you approach that? That whole kind of icky world of sort of internet thought leadership and marketing and all that stuff?
Lauren Currie 56:13
Yeah, I think, firstly, it's very clear to me in my head, that it's my job, it's part of my job. And that means that there are boundaries, it means that there are elements that are outsourced it means that are that are part that are strategic, you know, it's all about helping me reach more people have more impact. I think there are practices particularly I think, from white female influencers that keep me up at night. There's been a few recently that have made you know, that have got significant press coverage because of the the damage that they caused to vulnerable women who kind of took them at their word and ended up paying for services that rent delivered and women who are selling worse or you know, whether that's manifestation law of attraction, crystals, tarot cards, astrology.
I mean, you actually could not make it up. It's like, just as we're making progress. with gender equality, we're now being told to attribute or image to what the moon's doing to attribute our success to how hard we rub these two rocks together. You know, if you don't get it, it's because you don't visualise it and want it enough. And it's like, fucking insults as an intelligence. And it's also steeped in privilege is so steeped in white privilege, particularly because, you know, how are these things working out for women who are in domestic abuse, domestic abuse situations? How are these things working out for pregnant women that have just been sacked, and they've got nowhere to go? And no, no money to buy foods, like, this narrative that I can teach you how to think things and they will happen in your life as as awful. And you know, they, they're selling. They're selling a fake lifestyle, you know, it's this kind of, if you like me, and you want my life, buy my book and buy my course and this particular influencer, she made a million pounds by selling products that she never delivered. Hundreds of women who were financially or mentally vulnerable handed over you know, I had women get in touch with me who paid up to 5000 pounds and didn't get anything back.
Graham Allcott 58:53
And this is she's selling like the manifesting thing is that, Is that her? So it's like, the principle is you put this money in and then you dream about it. And then good stuff happens is that yes, like what you need in the universe. Like the secret the secret was all along those lines. So
Lauren Currie 59:11
law of attraction stuff, and don't get me wrong, positive thinking visualisation, all four. There's lots of science that shows those things work. But I yeah, I am not for I am not for women claiming that you can. You can think your way to financial wealth. You can think your way to entrepreneurship, or you can imagine your way to whatever version of success you're going after. And what was so harmful about that particular case is the people who complained and questioned Harvard immediately blocked and labelled anti feminists. You know, it's like very, you know, the same principles that we see people who, who run cults using, whether it's if you speak against it, you're Other the huge amount of fear because there was a lot of fear around what will the consequences for me in my business be if I speak out about this?
Graham Allcott 1:00:10
Isn't it interesting how there's like, there's this on the one. So on the one hand, you've got this idea of just think it and it will come true. And that tends to attract, you know, a predominantly female audience. And then on the other hand, you've got this thing of just hustle and hustle and hustle, and don't actually worry about whether you've got a great product, or whether it's benefiting people but just like, be on the treadmill for 20 hours. And that attracts a predominantly young male, you know, Gary Vee audience kind of kind of thing, right? But both of them are just so far at the extreme that they're going to be wrong, because they don't tie together the idea that not only have you got to think but you've got to have some logic to the work and do some work. And well, that's interesting. Yeah, you're right.
Lauren Currie 1:00:58
I hadn't. Yeah, I hadn't quite compared the two in that way. And I think one of the most toxic parts of those narratives is it's so focused on the individual. You know, it's so focused on self progression, rather than we it's like, collectively, how do we make things better, especially for the people who aren't instagramming? about their fucking mood boards? Because they are just trying to get through the day, you know, they're trying to survive.
Graham Allcott 1:01:32
Okay, let me ask you one more thing on that, then. So do you, when you see certain behaviour in terms of marketing and thought leadership online? Does it ever give you? Does it ever give you kind of rules or ways of thinking, this is how I want to push back against that and do it differently?
Lauren Currie 1:01:52
I think more it gives me conviction that I I'm showing up in a way that is meaningful, intentional, and not as genuinely creating value in the world. So I think, you know, for example, the maybe things are things I would do in the past, but I would think, you know, I don't want to I don't want to talk about this, too. I don't want to talk about my course too much. What if I annoy people, you know, that classic? The marketeers dilemma? I think when I see that stuff, I think, you know, it's absolutely okay for me to show up and say like, this is who I am, and this is what I can offer you. This is my, you know, 10 years plus CV and skill set that gives me the qualifications and the credibility to do this work. And it makes me it shows me that the needs and the demands for my work is probably even bigger than I realised, because now I'm getting a lot of people joining my community because they're saying I couldn't find one that wasn't banging on about Star signs. It's it really is becoming such a hot topic. And you know, I've asked a bunch of my friends who are practising scientists, like, can you come on my Instagram Live and tell me do a quick explainer, and they're like me? No, because what would I do an Instagram Live about the earth not being flat? No, like, we're way beyond like, we're putting people on Mars. Like I'm this is not up for debate. And I think it's so interesting, the distance between that and ensure you know, the algorithm and the bubbles mean that you're seeing the same messages all the time of, you know, Mercury's going into retrograde. So like, make sure you have this chat with your boss, and make sure you do this with your money this week. And it's like, No, thank you.
Graham Allcott 1:04:05
Honestly, I just, I felt like I could talk to you all day. And there's, there's even things on things on my list that we haven't talked about. So maybe we'll get you back on. Yeah, we'll get you back on another time and pick up some of these different threads of conversation but yeah, just super inspiring. And just I love I love your your sense of purpose and your sense of mission and everything you do. So just for finish, just tell people where they can find out more connect with you and share lots of stuff online. That is not hippie woowoo.
Lauren Currie 1:04:41
Yes. So I'm Lauren curry on Instagram and Twitter. super active on Instagram share posts most days are and a lot of the things that Graham and I have talked about. My website is Lauren curry.co. Up front is we are upfront.com and the next bond starts on the seventh. Jim, we still have lots of places left. So if you're even the tiniest bit curious, do get in touch, check out the website, I would love to welcome you. And thank you so much for listening.
Graham Allcott 1:05:13
Pleasure. Thank you so much, Lauren.
There you go, Lauren curry, I could have talked to Lauren for hours. And I've been trying to do this thing recently where I'm trying to keep the record to 50 or 55, rather than an hour. So that the whole thing, once you add the intros in and everything comes to an hour or just less than an hour and 10 just failed with that one, because there was just so much to talk about. And I just felt like it took too long for hours. So just it is what it is, it will be longer than an hour. There we go. I suppose the beauty of podcasting is you don't actually have to operate within constraints. I don't know I have mixed feelings about it. I kind of feel like sometimes all the best podcasts I listen to like they're well over an hour. And then also I get the whole thing of it feels daunting, and it's a puts people off and all the rest of it. So yeah, I'll continue doing what I'm doing and trying to shorten it just a little bit. But yeah, for follow Lauren on social media, she's always sharing really good stuff. She's got a couple of email newsletters as well, one for upfront and one for her own social media stuff, which she has this really nice way of kind of giving that platform to other people in her network to share stuff that they like as well. So just a really nice way of doing it. And yeah, just always means you get a really nice varied feed of good info and good insights into your email inbox. So follow Lauren, on social media and email newsletters.
And by the way, my own email newsletter Rev Up For the Week, every Sunday, I write a little productive or positive thing for the week ahead. it lands on a Sunday evening, you signed a five pass for on a Sunday evening. And now they change the settings. So now it lands at four o'clock, but I see any reason it changed. And if you want to sign up for that, just get to https://www.grahamallcott.com/links. I'm hovering just underneath 1000 subscribers this week. So if you want to make me happy by helping me to reach what feels like a really big milestone, I only started this about a year ago, just over a year ago. And it's just been I found it really useful. Just the practice of putting something out there that I'm happy with every single Sunday and I write it during that week. I don't bulk batch right there or anything like that. But just that practice of always having a deadline every Sunday has just been a very useful one. For me, but also, yeah, really valuing the connections that are making through it as well. So people just replying regularly to things that they've liked in the email, occasionally things that they didn't like in email, and just all of that too. So if you want to be part of that little community, just head to https://www.grahamallcott.com/links, and then you can just click the button there and sign up. It's called Rev Up For the Week. That's it for another week. It's it's hard to hear and I'm enjoying the weather. And it's also meaning that I'm trying to not work too hard. So given that the name of this podcast is Beyond Busy, I wish you a week of getting beyond busy finding some flow and also take some time for you over the course of the week, and we'll see you in a week's time. Take care