Design Matters with Debbie Millman
Graham Allcott 0:07
My guest today is Debbie Millman. Debbie was described by Fast Company as one of the most creative people working in business, and she's the founder of the hugely influential Design Matters podcast. From 1995 to 2016, Debbie worked in leadership roles for Sterling Brands, leading influential projects for the likes of Burger King, Star Wars 7up and Campbell Soup. A new book, Why design matters, taps into the brains of Tim Ferriss, Brene Brown, Esther Perel, and Malcolm Gladwell, amongst many others, and explores what it means to be creative and innovative, in work, and in life. In this episode, we talk about her pioneering work, who owns your logos, how to deal with internet pylons, and much more. This is Debbie Millman.
So I'm with Debbie Millman. How are you?
Debbie Millman 1:31
Hey, Graham, I'm good. It's really nice to be here with you.
Graham Allcott 1:35
It was just really great to have you on the show. And so we're going to talk a bit about your book, Why design matters. And I thought maybe the best place to start would be to mention the fact that I am talking to one of the Oh, geez of podcasting, right, like you like a legend in podcasting. So let's start with that, because that's pretty central to the book, too. So the podcast is Design Matters. And you started your podcast in 2005.
Debbie Millman 2:02
I did in 2005. I was it actually started as an internet radio show, I was approached by an event fledgling internet radio network called Voice America, not Voice of America, which is very different voice America. And, and they were interested in my doing a podcast for their business network. And they originally wanted me to do it on branding. But I was most interested in doing it because it would give me an opportunity to do something that wasn't branding, I had dedicated so much of my life at that point to branding into my professional practice. And when I realised they weren't offering me a job, but rather offering me an opportunity to pay them to produce the podcast, I pretty much figured I could do whatever it is, that's really the lead gene for them was was a profit centre. So it started very much as vanity project. And it really was because I was so bad at it, that the fact that they let me put it up on the internet was just a miracle. But yes, February 4 2005, my first episode aired
Graham Allcott 3:11
over the years, obviously, like you say in the book that you then used the podcast as a really good excuse to go and talk to your heroes and interview really interesting people. Yes. And you talk about the your sort of ethos of interviewing. Like, what do you think makes a good interview,
Debbie Millman 3:30
I think respect is is one of the key. The key elements, I think trust is also really, really important, certain generosity and willingness to open yourself up. For me, it is a matter of really deep preparation to be able to allow the guests that I'm talking to, to talk about whatever they want. And for me to be able to converse with them about it because I'm not necessarily surprised by what they're saying, in that I have a sense of what they've done in that area and how they've constructed the the practice that they have. So I think those are the three things
Graham Allcott 4:15
and is there any out of all the interviews that you've done? Is there any that stands out as being like a particular highlight perhaps like one that was really challenging or one that just turned into something really amazing?
Debbie Millman 4:28
Well, there I've done nearly 500 episodes at this point. And and so it's a little bit hard to say, Oh, that was like the one certainly, my episode with Richard Saul Wurman, where he told me my questions were stupid and was very terse with me was was one of my most memorable way I have to say that it ended up being I think, also one of my most listened to, and certainly my most common To the Python,
Graham Allcott 5:00
why do you think your questions are stupid? What was? What was the issue?
Debbie Millman 5:04
Well, you know, Richard is, is really, I have to say he's kind of a genius. I mean, he's the man that created the TED conference. And I'm not entirely sure he was familiar with the format of the show, which is basically a deep dive into a person's origin story to understand how they've created and design the life that they currently have. What obstacles did they go through? What challenges challenges did they face, not as interested in talking about somebody's successes as the process that someone took to get to that success? And Richard didn't want to talk about the past, you want to talk about the future, and I'm not a futurist, I'm an analyst. So, so there was we were at a little bit of cross purposes, because I was interested in understanding how he had gone from, in his own words, living in a flophouse to becoming one of the most, you know, sort of revered public intellectuals of our time. And so he was very impatient with me. It's like, why are we talking about the past? I don't understand these are stupid questions. And I said, Well, what do you want to talk about? Because that's a good question. Let's talk about the future. And so we were a bit at cross purposes. Ultimately, he wrote me after the episode aired, and said that, literally, he said, at the time, he thought the interview was really terrible. But now upon listening to it, he thought it was rather good. And so that was, that was an interesting turn of events that I did not expect him were very friendly. And, you know, that's who he is. And I'm who I am. And so, we agreed to disagree about the process. But I think ultimately, we're both pleased with the result.
Graham Allcott 6:40
Yeah. And I think I just interrupted you, as you were talking about another one there as what was it? What was the other one? You're gonna miss? Oh,
Debbie Millman 6:46
geez, what was the other one I was gonna mention. I mean, there's just so many interesting people that I've spoken to that it's so hard to say, you know, that was my most memorable. Certainly, you know, Richard was one of my most memorable just because it was so difficult. And he was so terse, and quite critical. But others that I think are important to my life, certainly my interview with my now wife, Roxane Gay, although we were already in a relationship when I interviewed her, but the reason for my reaching out to her in the first place was to invite her to be a guest on the podcast. So the fact that mums first she said, Yes, then she ultimately said, No, we didn't have a podcast, I kept bothering her about getting together and then actually asked her out on a date. And so then, you know, after, I don't know, four or five, six months together, we finally did have an interview. And that's actually when we sort of publicly came out as a couple it was at the On Air Fest in Brooklyn, New York, and I interviewed her and at the time, people didn't like even the people that the honour fest didn't know that we were dating. And so there was sort of an audible gasp when we talked about being in love during the episode, and so that's certainly one of my favourite for a lot of very, very poignant personal reasons.
Graham Allcott 8:09
Yeah, that's definitely going to be one that you go back and listen to a few
Debbie Millman 8:13
times. And obviously, my interviews with Tim Ferriss. Tim is one of my most extraordinary guests in so many ways. And we have a, I think, a certain conversation chemistry for lack of a better term. And he he's really helped me quite a lot with the show. And we've had, I think, really important conversations both on his podcast, probably more on his than mine, but certainly, the conversations we've had on mine, I think are really important, too.
Graham Allcott 8:41
And when you think about podcasting now, so you were one of the one of the early adopters of being a podcast now it feels like everyone's got a podcast. Yes. What do you think are some of the things that you've seen change? What have you noticed has changed in that world podcast? Well,
Debbie Millman 8:57
certainly the awareness. I remember when I first started talking to people about it, they were like, Oh, okay. Like, is that something with your iPod? I mean, like, what people didn't know. And now when I tell people, they're like, Oh, you too, you and everybody else and my grandmother. So you know, it's, it's, it's a little bit of a cliche now, but I'm not doing it for that reason. And I love doing it. And it's become, you know, one of the greatest gifts of my life to be doing it. So the fact that everybody in the grandmother has went to just means I'm in good company, I guess,
Graham Allcott 9:32
almost feel like you should go the other way. Right. And so you have a period in your life, whether you're the only person with the podcast, and then now if you stopped doing yours, you'd be the only person who didn't have a podcast and that'd be like, that. I feel like the cool thing to do.
Debbie Millman 9:45
Absolutely. I think there's some expectations that people have with podcasts that can sometimes be unrealistic, you know, the fact that they just put out a podcast and expect people to listen to it isn't always the case. And I really recommend that people when people ask me what kind of podcast should I do, I suggested they do something that they're really passionate about that they're never going to get bored with. And that they're endlessly fascinated by. And I'm endlessly fascinated by how people construct their lives, how people manage their, their challenges and trauma. And that, to me, never gets tiring. I also expect that when people are I tell people to expect that when they're doing a podcast, record 10 episodes, bank them, have them, and then put them out once every two weeks to establish some consistency. Rather than have a great idea for a podcast, make the podcast, put it out there, put one episode out there and then have to keep up with a schedule because life gets in the way. And priorities can sometimes change. And I think if you're gonna plan to do something that's significant, Do do do a batch of shows, and then put them out and do all of the necessary prep with your identity and your point of view and your positioning and really approach it like you would any project for any client. And take it really seriously. Yeah,
Graham Allcott 11:17
so it's good advice to have a bank of them? Is that how you generally operate with yours? So do you always have you like always three ahead or 10? Ahead? Or like, how do you tend to do that?
Debbie Millman 11:26
Definitely not 10 ahead. But I do try to have about four or five ahead. And that's something that I find to be really helpful, especially if you're working with other people whose schedules are often busy, my producer is not just my producer, he produced a lot of other podcasts. And so I need to make sure that we have the time to do what we need to do in a way that allows for me to also be able to do all the preparation I like to do for my interviews, because I don't just sit down and say to somebody, which is often what what people do now, like, tell me about yourself. And I'm like, I'm 60 years old, you don't want me to talk about my life for 60 years. So I'll try to make it really snappy, but I'm probably gonna leave a lot of stuff out.
Graham Allcott 12:13
Yeah. So it's that tension, isn't it if I'm always probably about four or five ahead, but if you're only one or two ahead, and then someone cancels or date ski wrong, then you've got a gap. But also, if you're 1015 ahead or something, then it just feels so it feels so not fresh by the time you put those episodes out. So you've always got a slight like tension that you are right down the middle.
Debbie Millman 12:34
Yeah, there's that continuum of feeling really new and interesting. And then really on the edge of, of When did I do that?
Graham Allcott 12:44
Yeah, what did I talk about with me, it was so long ago. So Fast Company described you as one of the most creative, creative people working in business.
Debbie Millman 12:55
And you know that when that happened, I didn't even know that it happened. I didn't, I didn't know I didn't, I didn't hear from I mean, I love this company. They're really great. It's a great magazine, a great site. I love working with the folks at Fast Company. But literally one day I was on the site looking for an older article that I had written from, like 10 years prior. And so I did a search on the first company cite for my articles. And that popped up and I'm like, Hey,
when did that happen? That would have sent out like a press release. And I'm joking, I don't send out press releases. But I would have wanted to
Graham Allcott 13:32
Well, I got that, like your publisher for the book, obviously picked up on that. But I wonder how if you went around the internet and kind of Googled, you could probably find loads more quotes like that, right? If they're all just like, hidden away, well,
Debbie Millman 13:43
then they'd also come upon the bad reviews. So I don't I don't want to do that. Go Nalli. Now, it's like, it's the first line of my bio, I'm like, really, that designation, believe me.
Graham Allcott 13:53
But you do have this, you know, really incredible career. So you ran Sterling brands for a good period of time. And I love the thing that you say in the book where you talk about, at one point, you could have walked into the store and like 25% of the brands on the shelf of things that you've worked on, things that you've designed. So you've just got this real, like what's quite interesting, as I was reading, reading that part of the book, it made me think that so often, and maybe it's partly because I'm in the UK, and you're in the US and like a lot of the brands that we have a US brands, you know it Starbucks and Burger King and like all these big US brands, they all feel to me like quite far away and quite exotic. And then you're they're actually working on them and actually shaping this kind of stuff. So you're at that we've been at that coalface in terms of how branding works and stuff. So, just wanted to start, you know, exploring that a little bit. And I suppose the first question is, when did you first get interested in the idea of brands and logos like kind of telling a story through brands or logos,
Debbie Millman 15:02
there's sort of the professional interest that happened quite by accident. And then there's what I guess I could call the longing that started when I was a very little girl. And my dad was a pharmacist, and he had his own pharmacy. And he was sort of mom and we had a mom and pop pharmacy. And when I was very little, my mother would take my brother and I to go visit him at the store. And I was enthralled by all of the, what I consider to be jewels in in the pharmacy, the Brett and hair accessories spinner where all of the goody ponytail holders were shining and very beautifully tinted. Then I just looked at those things. And I don't know if it was because I just sort of grew up feeling kind of less than or with low self esteem. But I looked at those things and thought, These are the things that can make me beautiful. These are the things that can make me feel pretty. And so the skin creams and the hair accessories, all of these things I coveted and literally collected and looked at longingly with, with such reverence, almost as if they were magical amulets. And then as I got older, those things that that love transferred to very typical things for a teenager, things like Levi's jeans and Lacoste polo shirts, I grew up in the 70s. So those were really, really important to me. And unfortunately, at the time, they were well out of my family's financial per view. My parents had gotten divorced. My mom didn't have a lot of money, she was a seamstress. She didn't understand why those clothing products were more expensive than dungarees as we refer to them then without the little tag in my pocket and without the the little alligator on the on the breastplate. Like those things she didn't understand. She was like, Well, you know, we can go to the craft store and I can find you like little, little emblems that I can sew on your shirt myself. And I'm like, Mom, not only is that bad, but that's actually worse than not having it. Yeah, she did not. But I do remember one point as a teenager riding my bike up to the craft store to see if I could find an alligator that I could indeed like iron onto my polo shirt. Alas, you know, there were just things like Tony the Tiger and whatnot, which wasn't the look I was going for. But I do I do have a photograph. By the time I think I got to be a senior and in college in high school, you know, saved up all my babysitting money and had one pair of Levi's and one Lacoste shirt, and I am posing by my friend's house and feeling very, very posh, you know, very glamorous that I had somehow arrived as one of the cool kids, when in fact it was I wasn't I never was. But it made me feel in that moment, like I was part of some elite group that I would not otherwise have had entry to. So I think that's really when it all began psychologically. And then, as a professional, it was really quite by accident that I got headhunted into a branding consultancy from a design firm as a salesperson. And because I think of all of the power that brands had in my early life, I was very he able easily able to sell programmes to clients for the agency that I was working at. First Interbrand and then Sterling and and that really became my path to leadership at Sterling through sales.
Graham Allcott 18:49
And so some of the things that you've worked on, you know, Starwars, seven up, Burger King, all of these these, you know, huge names, is there any that stand out to you as particularly significant in terms of you changing what that represented to people or having an input in terms of making it represent something slightly different to what it did before?
Debbie Millman 19:12
certainly think that that the work that Sterling did, on Tropicana is is iconic, it's still the same package we designed 20 years ago, the strong orange and when that was taken away for a very brief period of time, people were just outraged, and so much so that the PepsiCo brought it back. That's certainly something that I feel really good about. The Star Wars work is it's not so much that I think it changed culture or move the needle in any way. But now that my nephew my 14 year old nephew is obsessed with Star Wars and superheroes and Marvel and collects the figurines, the fact that he has a package that I created more than 20 years ago in his room as a collectible is also something that gives me enormous joy and enormous pride. And a lot of the work that we did, has really stood the test of time. I mean, Burger King was just changed by Jones Knowles, Ritchie and was was magnificently led by Tosh Hall. But it lasted for quite a long time as logos go, it was over two decades, and we changed it at a time to brand was really suffering. It was the late 90s. And we needed to create a shiny or more modern look for Burger King. And so that's why the gradients were there. That's why the swoosh device was there. It was very of the moment and then lasted for well longer than that moment, until very recently, when it was just updated again, and ironically went back to a lot of the brand equity that it had prior. So it's sort of an interesting journey. But there's still lots and lots of logos and brands, that that still borrow from the brand equity that we developed and created. And I feel really proud of that body of work.
Graham Allcott 21:08
I'm just picturing you in particular that Tropicana one when they go to change it, and there's a big outcry. And you're thinking, well, that's, that's my baby, everyone's defending my baby. That's a really special thing professionally,
Debbie Millman 21:21
it was. And we knew that it was changing, we had worked very, very hard to get that package that was in the market, destroying the orange package for quite a long time. And it was, I don't even know that it was necessarily on the market for as long as it took for us to make it and go through all the the necessary market research and so forth. And then we heard that there was a new package coming, it was being managed by very senior people like PepsiCo, not the the then design group at Pepsi. And so we knew that it was happening, but we didn't know what it was going to look like. And there was very little if none, very little, or no market research done at the time. So I was really jealous about that. I'm like, Oh, my God, they're bringing this to market without consumer verification. And I was How did they manage that? How did the firm manage to convince Pepsi to not do market research, that's really what I was most envious of. And then when it came to market, I actually thought it was a really beautiful package. I think that our nail did a nice job. I think the problem was, there was no launch strategy to communicate to consumers, why it was changing, and what it was now going to be standing for and what it represented. And, you know, at the time, I remember talking to Paula Scher, who, who always tells the truth, you know, Paula is a truth teller. She says what she means she means what she says, and we had a long talk about it. And she said, I actually think it's really bad for graphic design and branding that this is happening. And it was not the response I was expecting. I thought she was going to give me high fives for having a package that people clamour to get back. And she said, I think it's just going to make it more difficult for corporations to feel that they can do really revolutionary work without big ramifications. And they get to be much more tentative to stay very close in. And she was right now people say, Oh, I don't want to do a Tropicana with the package. And she was, you know, as usual, she was right about that.
Graham Allcott 23:23
Yeah, it's those like really famous, you know, rebrands or, you know, the times where they've changed the formulation of what goes into Coke or Pepsi or something like, and there's a huge outcry. And then you realise that the corporation doesn't actually own the brand like it's, it's, it's kind of owned by every but everybody has an investment in it, don't they, in terms of what they think the story is. And you talk about that in your your TED talk as well, which I took this line out of your TED Talk, which I just thought was really interesting. I love you, too. Maybe just speak a little bit to it. But you said, branding is the profound manifestation of the human spirits. I just really love that. I'd love you to just talk talk a bit more about that
Debbie Millman 24:05
very, very controversial line. Well, I think that if you look back at our time here, as modern humans, we have been mark making for almost the entire time. We started first by communicating our reality and expressing our reality on the cave walls of Lesko. And now we're finding even older caves that have even older mark making. It's a behaviour that's really almost as old as we are. And from there you can see a very distinct evolution of our mark making from first communicating on cave walls, and then slowly over time, moving to creating marks to signify our relationship to a higher power which we refer to as religion and, and God. And the interesting thing is that many of these marks were created around the same time but all over the planet, you know, we weren't
Graham Allcott 25:02
completely independent. And
Debbie Millman 25:05
so a lot of our more ancient religions were created in that 10,000 year ago range. And they all you know, we all have marks, we all worship in an environment, we have rules and regulations about how to behave. From there, we went to developing flags to developing family crests, and then to developing sort of the ultimate, I think expression of, of a product, which is its label, label. And we just think of that word, the label, label things. And the operation really appropriated that behaviour that was first created by humans for humans for free. And then suddenly, the corporation appropriated that behaviour, to be able to create recognition and consensus among people that were participating in the brand, either by buying it or experiencing it, using it, wearing it, etc. It's only in the last 10 years that we've begun to wrestle that power back in the creation of movements. And so people once again are creating marks, by people, for people now, for the sheer purpose, the sort of single minded purpose of changing behaviour, changing the world. So Black Lives Matter me to there, they all use the tenants of branding in the same way that we corporate people have been using for the last couple of 100 years, but are now doing it not for return on an investment financially, or market share position or shelf presence, but really to change behaviour. And so, branding is a behaviour that's really as old as we are. Whether or not it's used as a capitalist tool is a decision that we also make. And so on its best day, we can use the tenants of branding, to change behaviour that can change the world. And that is what I mean by that statement,
Graham Allcott 27:09
and that thing that you talked about. So Brent, so you talk about Black Lives Matter. And the Women's March, you talked about as well, where it's like those things are bottom up rather than top down, right. So there's, the corporate brands are generally top down. But a lot of the most exciting stuff that you're seeing is his stuff is bottom up.
Debbie Millman 27:26
Yes. And you know, these are brands, but they're well more than brands to their movements. And you can have a branded product. But you also in order for a movement to succeed, there needs to be a consensus around understanding what it means, why it's existing, what the purpose of it is, all of these things, Randy gets a bad rap, because people think that it's just for capitalist reasons. It's just used to make money. But really what it's used for is to influence behaviour, or to express behaviour and beliefs, brands, signifier, affiliations, they telegraph our beliefs. And so whether or not we use them for making money, or we use them for making change is our decision, I wanted
Graham Allcott 28:07
to come back to the sort of morality thing in a minute, I wanted to ask you about Milton glazes less than a second. But just before we do that, so I sort of tend to think that maybe one of the reasons branding gets a bad rap is that when I think of branding, I just makes me feel a bit tired, because there's so many brands competing for our attention. Is that something that you see as problematic? And D? Like, do you think there's, you know, some kind of movement in terms of corporations looking at that and saying, how do we how do we, because that's almost like damaging to corporations to right, like fighting for that space. And it feeling like everyone's inundated when they leave the house just with 1000s of logos, do you think there's there's change happening in that kind of space? Now, I don't know. Just because the commercial pressure means is to do well to change,
Debbie Millman 28:58
there's innovation and then there is iteration. And innovation is about creating something new and iteration is about creating something based on something else. And innovation is really hard. And a lot of companies are buying brands because they because the path to the market is so fraught, that rather than create something from nothing, they're buying other brands and then building on them. But we're also you know, Brett's the brand extensions exists for that purpose to be able to continue to iterate. Because innovation is so hard. You know, there are I think 112 variations of Oreos since they were originated. Now is that a good thing or a bad thing? Depends on how much you like Oreos, I guess, you know, all of these things are decisions we make and if consumers don't buy literally figuratively into the product, it's not made companies aren't making these things altruistically and thinking, you know what we love This product so much, we are just going to wait for people to discover how amazing it is, we're going to keep on funding this, we're going to keep on paying this slotting fees, we're going to keep on bringing out advertising and working on the website, social media. And eventually, people are going to realise how amazing it is, and then they're going to buy it. That doesn't ever happened. Ever, ever. People only corporations only make what people they think people are gonna buy and what people end up buying. And if they don't, usually within six months or so, off the market.
Graham Allcott 30:29
So that's the morality thing of brands, one of the things I loved in the book, so the book has all these, like q&a, interviews and beautiful photography. And I guess if it's a book called Why design matters, it has to look beautiful, and it does. So Milton Glaser, he's a bit of a guru designer in his time, and I think he did he do the thing I loved was that his thing and various other things, and he had this list of here are the things that designers should never do, which I just thought was, it was just a really nice way of sort of encapsulating, I guess the morality that we all have, not just designers, but that we all have when we when we're sort of participating in, in capitalism and in work, you know, do you want to just talk about that list?
Debbie Millman 31:18
Well, I think, yeah, I don't think it was so much a list of what we shouldn't do. It was a list of things that we're sometimes asked to do, and how willing are we to do them. So I think it's the 10 steps or the 12 steps to hell, I think it's 12 steps on the road to hell. And it starts out very innocuously like, you know, make make the logo bigger or make the wind look like it's got history behind it, you know, things that that we kind of all do, leading all the way up to working on something that causes someone harm.
Graham Allcott 31:50
So one of them was like us use the metal from the World Trade Centre to make a metal that commemorates 911 For for profit. And then it goes down into like, doing the marketing for an SUV, that is about the they know has been tested, that it will just, you know, it will collapse and fall off the road and injure people and stuff like that. So it's kind of like this list of like, yeah, where do you?
Debbie Millman 32:17
Where's, where's the place for you? Where's that defining line? And when it first came out, it was really quite provocative, because, you know, everybody has their different line. And then there are some people that are quite comfortable working on firearms are quite comfortable working on cigarettes, tobacco, alcohol, you know, so people will say, Well, if you won't work on tobacco, ye working on alcohol, so you know, there's a lot of questions, necessary questions to ask oneself about choice making decision making, and what you're willing and not willing to do? How do you view that
Graham Allcott 32:55
personally,
Debbie Millman 32:56
you know, it depends on the time of my life, when I was when I had when I had my business, and had 150 people to make sure I got their paychecks every every week, and was also a smoker, working on cigarettes at the time kind of felt exciting, you know, I was working on. And this was in the I want to say the 90s. This was in the 90s. I didn't feel particularly bad about it. But now I'm ashamed of it. really ashamed of it. And wish that I hadn't done it. But also at the time. Again, I was a smoker. And I was working on products that I smoked. And I also was in a position where we needed the money. So was it a decision? I regret? Yes. Would I have done it differently at that moment in time? Not sure. What I do at now, ever. So people change ideas change. Certain things I never was tempted to do I was never I would never have worked on firearms. But I was never offered an opportunity to. But I wouldn't have I would never have worked for pro choice movement. I would never have worked for a candidate I didn't believe in. So there are certain things that are very black and white to me. And then other things that were a bit squishier.
Graham Allcott 34:23
Yeah. And I've had similar ones myself, where there's definitely things that I've that I'm proud of decisions I took at the time. And one of them in particular was about do you guys have payday loans? Yes. Terrible. Horrible. Yeah. So. So the idea is, yeah, so very high interest rates, and if you miss it by a day, and they're typically aimed at people who can't afford a regular bank loan or don't have the credit to get a regular bank, and I turned that down, and I also turned down a tobacco thing. When we had no money in the business and it was like, it would have been very easy to say yes. too, but then there's also ones like, you know, when I, I drink and I've and I've had clients with my business that alcohol companies that at the time, it felt really cool to be going into these offices that have, you know, big long bars and it's like, wow, like we can drink in the office. And then I guess, as I've gone through life and had a couple of friends who've been very, you know, become very alcohol dependent and have had, you know, big crisis in their lives through alcohol and stuff. It's like, it's that did it the right thing, you know, so I think that's, it's really interesting what you say there that some of that morality is in the grey area. And it's squishy, isn't it? And it's, and it's, and it's like, you it does change as you as you go through life, and it kind of feels like the just like online culture doesn't really allow for, for that complexity.
Debbie Millman 35:51
Yeah, I mean, the one thing I can look back on and say, that I'm glad I did was give people the opt out, when we were working on on the product, we never forced anybody to do it. So if there was anybody at the company that felt that it was wrong to do we didn't, we didn't expect anybody to do it if they didn't want to. And there were people that didn't want to, they still got paid. So but but still, you know, I stopped smoking, my views on on smoking changed, and ultimately don't want to participate in something that causes so much harm.
Graham Allcott 36:24
The other one I wanted to talk to you about from the book was, was the Tim Ferriss thing about fear. So just tell me a bit more about that. So he's been on your podcast, you've been on his podcast, and yeah, it feels like you do have this very open dialogue, when the when the two of you are talking, and we'll put the links to those episodes in our show notes. You can go and check it out. But yeah, like, how would you describe your relationship with Tim and the conversations that you have?
Debbie Millman 36:55
Well, Tim, described our relationship in, in the introduction, he wrote in the book as I'm his sister from another mister, so I guess, I would say the same thing. He's my brother from another mother. We're we're sort of we feel like siblings, we do feel very connected, sort of deep in our souls with lots of similar experiences that we've gone through, as well as lots of similar ambitions and ways in which we've coped when also very different ways. But for whatever reason, we've always sort of nudged into each other's hearts when we've had our interviews. And it started that way, you know, he, he came on my podcast first. Then I went on his, then he came back on mine again, and then it went to his again. And every time we discover something new about ourselves in those conversations, not just finding connection in each other, but also learning and growing, you know, the first time I was on his show, when he asked me about my work with the Joyful Heart Foundation, and why I said, publicly on this site that that work made my life makes sense. No one had ever asked me that before, I hadn't been public with a lot of my early childhood trauma. And suddenly there, I'm talking to the most popular podcaster in the world, being asked by about something so personal, that I had to sort of fall into that, that moment with open arms and open heart, and really talk about things that I'd never talked about publicly before. And it was, again, one of the great gifts of my life, being able to suddenly have that freedom to share in a way that felt safe and important and necessary.
Graham Allcott 38:40
And that was a great conversation. And it you know, one of the things I could say listen to it, as it sounded like you'd, it sounded like you talked about it hundreds of times before, like just the eloquence that you had with that conversation, which I guess is one of the real sort of gifts of, you know, like your chemistry with him and like that interview, but also podcasting as a whole, it like, has this very, sort of in like, it's an intimate medium. In many ways. It's an even if even though you know, it's going to go out publicly at the time, it's just the two of you, you know, going back and forth and connecting in that way.
Debbie Millman 39:13
Right. And, and especially when we're in my studio, because it's very dark and about pre COVID. I was doing all my interviews live. And so we're sitting three feet apart, sort of staring into each other's eyes and just having this very intimate experience, not sexual in any way, but just a very intimate, close, almost symbiotic relationship in that in that moment.
Graham Allcott 39:42
Yeah. It's amazing. And I wanted to talk to you about so one of the things he was talking about in that interview is that you were the victim of you're one of the first victims of an internet pylon
Debbie Millman 39:53
back in 2003. Yes.
Graham Allcott 39:57
So the background to this is is the website called stand up? Or speak up?
Debbie Millman 40:03
It was now I mean, Armin vit founded it in I think 2002. And it ran for I think about 10 years. And now he has another site that's even more popular called brand new. And so
Graham Allcott 40:13
this was because you were the you were a judge for a big design award. And some people on say, this was one of the really early internet forums, they kind of took exception for the fact that you were that like the big kind of corporate person that done all this, you know, famous corporate work, and that you were in this sort of position as the judge and they kind of took umbrage to that, and it became a very personal thing. Do you want to do you want to tell the story from there?
Debbie Millman 40:42
Well, I had been the Baxter is so interesting, at least to me, I had been part of AIG is brand experience group, prior to being asked to be a judge. And that was, I think, in like 9899 2000 around then. And I love doing it. And I was on the board of this little brand experience group within AIGA, which is the AIGA stood for the American Institute of Graphic Arts. And now it's AIGA, the professional association for design and and I love being part of this little group. And when my term was over, I reapplied as did everybody else on the board at the time. And I was the only one that that didn't get asked to re up my my Boardman ship. And I felt very rejected and very kicked to the curb. And then executive director of AIGA, I think as a consolation prize, and to try to keep me encouraged about being involved with the organisation. He asked if I would be a judge in this upcoming annual competition, which was very, his was very prestigious. And I was, I hadn't ever been asked to do something like that before. And I was so thrilled and so excited. When I did the judging, I was judging with two very well known designers that felt that any package design could never ever, ever win an award in the competition that it was just to mass market to ugly blue judging the packaging, design competition. And so it's kind of hard to eliminate like every mass market package good. And then were some nice ones. But it was a very cantankerous experience. I think we all agreed at the end of the day on only seven things that would make it into the annual which is not what AIGA wanted, they wanted way more. And so I left that day at AJ headquarters thinking, um, you know, never ever going to be part of AIGA again, and then several, I don't know if it was a year later or a month later, it's really hard for me to remember the specific timing of when I judged and I think maybe it was read a year or so later, when the annual came out. The people on SpeakUp though this sort of renegade rogue writers, the anti establishment designers that were very critical of AIGA, saw the association that they had with me, who they thought was a corporate clown. And really just, they wrote an open letter to AIGA about their association with me and how they could be involved with somebody like me that they refer to as a She devil. Now, I can laugh about it 20 years later, but I was mortified and horrified. I was really worried that I was gonna get fired from my job when people saw that I was being sort of with that I was the head of sterling design division, and now being called this corporate clown and the She devil and took me a while to figure out what to do. I didn't I didn't want anybody at my office to know people weren't reading blogs back then very much. This was a very small group of people. But it did feel like it went viral online. And then I ended up writing in and they were still very, very critical and ultimately just sort of put my tail between my legs and walked away, I was still really, really, really hurt about it. They wrote another article about me asking if the dark side was prevailing as if I was Darth Vader. And then a couple of weeks after that, Armin wrote to me and apologised for the bullying. And it was interesting. He didn't want to take back the fact that he thought my work was what he referred to online as a pair of turds. And he was talking about Burger King and Star Wars. But But he felt bad that I did the way that I had. And I wrote him back and I said, you know, like your apology. Thank you. But you know, you have this really interesting forum here. People are holding people accountable in real time having these really robust conversations about design. You know, this could be better this could be this could be really significant. And he wrote me back and said, What would you like to write for the site? And I was like, Sure, and I did and that moment while the bullying and the story of being, I guess attacked, like that
was so painful and so hurtful at the time, it became the entry point for every single thing that then happened thereafter in terms of my writing for speaker, which turned into my opportunity with voiceamerica, which turned into an opportunity with print magazine, which turned into my meeting Milton Glaser, which turned into, like, every single thing I'm doing now. And so the worst moment of my professional life really turned into the most significant. And I think that's important for people to hear, because you don't always know how the story is going to end when you're in the middle of it. And while I at the time, would have wished anything else could have happened, anything else, the fact that it happened, now, I wouldn't have changed even a moment of it, because it turned into every aspect of my life today
Graham Allcott 45:54
feels like there's a really important lesson in all of that around fear and, and kind of, you know, looking at some of those situations where you can have these fears that you know, my career's about, and all these things are going wrong. But
Debbie Millman 46:08
yeah, I thought I was gonna get fired from my job that I was going to be just completely banished. And at the time, it felt like I was the most hated person in the in American graphic design, the AIGA people, the establishment hated me, I had been kicked to the curb, the speakers didn't know that. They just saw that this association existed, they didn't know that I was really I'm very unceremoniously just discarded. And then now the anti establishment needed me to. So I just felt like the most hated person in American graphic design.
Graham Allcott 46:44
I saw that thing, isn't it, where if you if you can look beyond that kind of lizard brain, sort of fear based thinking, and actually just say, what I'm doing is I'm making connections and putting one step in front of the other. And actually, you know, I'm making some progress on some stuff here. Even if not everybody loves it, the people who are drawn to your work will find you and, you know, like, it's amazing how much we just don't do because we put up that barrier of the fear of judgement, right, and the fear of being taken down
Debbie Millman 47:15
absolutely. And then ended up being I then Emily Oberman, who was then the president of the New York chapter of AIGA, invited me to be on the board of New York chapter, which I did for several years, then Sean Adams invited me to be on the national board. And then I ended up being the President of the National Board, which is president of the entire, the entire organisation, and then ended up in in 2019. So 16 years later, winning the AIG Lifetime Achievement Award. So it's surreal. It's surreal. And and the most magnificent thing about this is that I am the godmother to Arman's oldest child. Okay, so that's how it's amazing. Brian, he is the reason Brian is his arm, his wife, the co founder of speak up, she's the reason I ultimately first uploaded my digital files from voice America to iTunes, because she didn't want to listen to it live, it was too hard for her with, you know, little kids in life and like, put it up on iTunes. So I can just listen to it whenever I want. That was like, Oh, that's a great idea. And so that's why it became a
Graham Allcott 48:22
podcast as well. And that also is such a lovely sort of bring, bring us back to where we started the conversation around the podcast as well. I wanted to just ask you one other thing before I let you go, which is I was just explaining to you before we hit record, that I'm working on this book about kindness and your eyes lit up. So I would just love to just talk to you about kindness of what does kindness mean to you in terms of work and leadership?
Debbie Millman 48:49
I think it means a generosity of spirit. And it's very, very, very important to me to be kind and as generous as I possibly can be. I don't know if it's because I wasn't treated with kindness when I was growing up. But I find kindness to be next to love in terms of importance. And I'll go back to something Milton Glaser said to me in 2005, when I I took a class with him at the School of Visual Arts long before I was teaching there. And he said that you can see the world in one of two ways. You can see the world as a world of scarcity, where you have to hold on to everything you have, because there's so little of it. Or you can see the world as one of abundance where there's enough for everybody if we share and that has been my sort of creed for since then. There's enough for everybody. Share what you can and and then give away what you don't need. And that's something that I find to be really important.
Graham Allcott 50:00
Do you like like you were saying earlier about the not having the Levi's and sounds like we had very similar childhoods in that way to like the parents, you know, knitting the alternatives and whatever. Has that changed for you over time and was there was there a moment where you, you flipped from scarcity into abundance, or just kind of saw that in a different way.
Debbie Millman 50:21
When I graduated college, the lead gene, for me was self sufficiency, I needed to be able to support myself because I didn't want to go back to either my mother's house or my father's house. And I wanted very much to be self sufficient. What you find over time is when you think you've reached the financial goal, you know what your number and you get it, you realise, oh, no, this, I need more, I need more, because we metabolise everything very quickly. And if we're using these external markers to signify safety and security, and we don't feel that internally, there's nothing that's ever going to be able to fill you up. And so that's something that I've learned in terms of what you think you need to be safe from what you think you need to be secure. As far as brands and using Brands to give me social cachet. Sure. Yeah, there are times when I feel like, oh, that pair of shoes or that whatever, will make me feel prettier, but it doesn't last. And I know that, you know, as Dan Pink would say, if your idea of success, the biggest possible flat screen TV in existence, you're playing a fool's game, because you'll metabolise that TV really quickly, and then want another one? You know, for everybody that was satisfied with the promotion to Vice President, how long did it take before they started thinking about when they could be senior vice president or president, you know, and I've been through all of that. So I know that well, before we achieve or receive or acquire these things, it might feel like, that's enough. But when we do, if it's not based on a strong inner foundation, it's never gonna be enough. So I look at those experiences now. And when I'm tempted to whatever it is, I want or think I need in order to be this or that. I know that it's fleeting,
Graham Allcott 52:24
absolutely. Which is about the most perfect beyond busy encapsulation that we can reach. So just before we finish, where do people like, Where can people follow you online? The book is why design matters. And obviously, we encourage everyone to get out there and like buy in printed form, because it's like, it's it's just more beautiful that way. It's just a really beautiful design. But But where do you hang out online? Where Where can people connect with you and find out more about what you're up to?
Debbie Millman 52:50
Well, Instagram, Twitter, at Debbie Millman. I have a design matters Facebook page, which I post on. And then Debbie mama.com. And from there, you can get to the podcast, and also now the book.
Graham Allcott 53:03
Amazing. Thank you so much for being with us. Grand. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
So there you go. Debbie Millman, just really enjoyed talking to Debbie. And just so interesting, how many exciting people exciting brands like exciting stories, she's just been around over the course of her career, just someone who has the knack for getting to know the right people for being in the right places, and for working on really interesting stuff. So yeah, really grateful to Debbie for spending some time with us and being on the show. And recording that little outro just stuff to having finished the Brighton half marathon. So if you're in Brighton in the UK, then shout out if you were running in the Brighton half marathon. It's one of those ones I do most years. And I have to say, because I was in a book deadline in a bit of a hole through January and most of February, I basically just didn't really have much time to train. So I ended up running it having not done enough long runs. And if you're running, you'll know that that means pain. So even though it's only a half, I feel like I ran a full marathon yesterday and my knee is seriously sauce. Sat here with a hot water bottle on my knee and feeling a bit like an old man. But yeah, really grateful to get out and finish the race in a decent time yesterday as well.
So as always, just want to mention that this podcast is sponsored by my company Think Productive and we have a whole range of training workshops and coaching to really help your people to do their best work. Our work goes way beyond just looking at productivity and getting your inbox to zero and all the stuff that's in my book, How to be a Productivity Ninja. So we've got stuff around management, leadership, project management, whole load of stuff around helping hybrid teams as well. So if that's a tool of interest, then go to think productive.com And from there you'll be able to find your nearest office, we've got offices all over the world and we'll be able to get back to you and help you to put something in. So just head to www.thinkproductive.com to find out more. And as always, if you want to keep in touch with me the best place is www.grahamallcott.com/links. that will tell you everything that I've got going on and show you what I'm up to right now. And if you're not signed up, I've got a mailing list where every Sunday I send out a positive or productive email for the week ahead and you can sign up for that at the same link. So www.grahamallcott.com/links, and you'll see the thing sign up and there's also just forms on every page of Graham allcott.com to sign up for my wrap up for the week email. So that's about it for this week. We're going to be back in two weeks time for another episode. Got some really good ones that are in the can and coming up not least the next couple I think you're going to really love so really excited to share some more episodes with you over the next couple of weeks.
And until then take care bye for now.
✔ Links:
Debbie Millman: https://www.debbiemillman.com/
Debbie Millman on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/debbiemillman/
Buy the book "Why Design Matters: Conversations with the World's Most Creative People": https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Design-M...
Subscribe to Graham's Newsletter: https://www.grahamallcott.com/sign-up
Our Show Sponsors: Think Productive - Time Management Training: http://www.thinkproductive.com