The Squiggly Career Path, with Sarah Ellis
Graham Allcott 0:04
Good morning lockdown campus. We're back with another episode of Beyond Busy The show where we talk productivity, work life balance and how people find happiness and success. My name is Graham Allcott. I'm your host for the show. On this episode I'm talking to Sarah Ellis. She is one half of Amazing If and one half of the author team behind the book, The Squiggly Career just come out so we get to talk a little bit about the book. And also we talked about a load of really interesting stuff in this episode. So we talked about personal manifestos. We talk about her six year transition from employed to gain elite self employed. We talk, she used to work for Sainsbury's in head of corporate responsibility in society. So we talked about how changes have been dealing with the current crisis. The loo roll shortage and all that stuff. And just a whole lot more. So I think you're gonna really enjoy this conversation. So let's get pretty much straight into it. This is another one of these ones recorded down the line during lockdown, so a little bit of COVID chat, but not too much. Let's get straight into it. Here's our episode with Sarah Ellis.
I'm with Sarah Ellis, how are you?
Sarah Ellis 1:28
I'm good. Thanks, Graham. How you doing?
Graham Allcott 1:29
I'm good. Yeah, we just had a little chat before we press record and swap war stories on but we've not so much about COVID and a lockdown life and all that. So So let's start with that. Where are you? How has it been? How are you surviving this very crazy, interesting year that we're in?
Sarah Ellis 1:47
Well, I think like many people, the roller coaster of emotions is not just a weekly thing. It's a daily thing. I think I have over the weeks got better at coping. adapting and I think working out what works for me. And you definitely, I think grieve the loss of some of the things that we had previously or I definitely do. I miss, like everybody seeing family or friends, I miss Helen, my business partner, who I've not seen in real life now for a couple of months and running a business completely remotely, is a whole new proposition and one that we hadn't obviously anticipated or planned for. What I would what I sort of found is that I think in the early days, I think exercise was my saviour, being honest, almost it wasn't, it wasn't about work. And it wasn't about thinking about what was our business going to be. It was more about just keeping my mindset and my body in a good place, but always trying to just put while I was think I was processing everyone, everything I said to my friends, actually, I think one of my bleakest moments was, I went for a run. I think I was listening to some sort of Kelly Clarkson. And a lot And she was singing about what doesn't kill us will make us stronger. And I think I ended up in tears like midway through like a 10 k run. And I was like, Oh, this is like, this is a whole new a whole new low that actually felt very embarrassing to share with you. But I definitely don't think that was actually me just getting over the, you know, all the things that you've had cancelled that you were really looking forward to. And actually, the other thing I think so many people have had to process is, I think I felt guilty about feeling that way. Because you do realise that you're still in a relatively fortunate position. You haven't got any health challenges touchwood at the moment, certainly my family are all well, so you've know that that was a good thing. But also you're you've got so many mixed emotions, I think happening simultaneously. There's, there's no wonder that sometimes you go through one and halfway through your period tears, but I do feel that as I've got used to it, and certainly over the past six weeks or so started to kind of work in a new way. What I'm finding is there are some kind of really high For moments to there were some examples of where we as a business are doing things more creatively, more innovatively, we're working in ways that has accelerated because of the way that we're working right now. And I think there's some really good stuff that comes out of this. And, yeah, I get to see my toddler more, probably more than I really ever want to see him being on that upside. So I think at the moment, my current state and current mindset is actually starting to feel more hopeful starting to see the opportunity. And I'm really actually starting to think about what are some of the things that we've learned that we don't want to lose? And what are some of the good things, things that have actually been better? So we've managed to improve things through having to adapt force that perhaps we want to keep? And I think I think there are some examples of that.
Graham Allcott 4:51
Yeah. So I want to hear a bit more about the lessons that you're seeing and the positives coming out of it. Bit more in a minute we'll talk about amazing if of which you're co founder one half of the amazing if founding team. But yeah, I had a similar experience on the Sunday just before locked down here I went to a gig, which just feels crazy now and I was checking the Brighton Dome website all day, thinking this is gonna have to get cancelled, like, we're not gonna be able to go to this gig, but just nothing. Nothing came up on the page. So I rocked up there. And it was just one of the most incredible things I've ever experienced. Because it was like all these people who sort of knew that lockdown was coming, and it just had this atmosphere like it was the last gig on earth. And it was this guy, john hopkins, and he does these really beautiful piano, almost like sort of john cage Philip Glass stuff like very like lots of space and lots of resonance and reverb and all this kind of stuff. And then it transitions into really frenetic dance music and everyone sat down in the Brighton Dome and I was sat quite high up and Just had this moment of sort of looking around and hearing this music and seeing this crowd and just breaking down just start crying in the middle of the skin. It just felt like just this weird almost like being stuck on the wrong planet experience. It was very, very surreal. But yeah, I think we've probably all had those slightly weird moments where something as seemingly superficial as a Kelly Clarkson just any job right, he made me feel better, ya know, and I think it's good to share these things because I think Yeah, probably there are a lot of people who've had similar experiences over the last few weeks for sure. I also had a really interesting thing that he was on a podcast saying that the time in China where they noticed that most people were having the biggest struggles in terms of mental health was the six week mark. So that that was apparently part of the thinking why they said let's do three weeks in three weeks and it was you know, deliberately to try and mimic Again, this this six week low factor. And I really felt at the start of last week, the first couple of days last week, I just had this real sense of low. And it passed quite quickly. But whenever I was texting people about it, everyone was saying exactly the same thing. And kind of a weird thing. And certainly in my little online WhatsApp bubble last week, it seemed to be a pretty prevalent thing. But yeah, let's talk about some of the positives. So you're one half of amazing if, and actually, as a team, amazing. It's been growing as long as there's more of you than than just you and him. We've had handle on the podcast before. So do you want to start just by doing a quick recap of what is amazing if and then and then maybe just some of the some of the bits of learning or interesting things that you've been doing over the last few weeks in terms of how you've been transitioning your work and changing the way that you work?
Sarah Ellis 7:50
Yeah, so amazing. It really came from almost an insight and an idea more than a business proposition. I don't think either was ever intended to start a business. It was just we wanted to solve a problem, which actually I think is how a lot of great businesses start is you use a spotter problem and you have the initiative or in my case, luckily a brilliant business partner who can get on board with and decide to do something about it. And so as the problem that we spotted is that we felt like the the shape and the nature of careers were really changing. But what wasn't changing was how people were learning and the support that they were getting with their own development. And so we both started our careers in very large organisations very hierarchical, linear predictable, you often knew what was coming next, it was quite easy to look up words and to figure out what your path might be. And actually, probably five or six years into our careers, we started to just notice that actually, there was more ambiguity, change transitions, just just in general, more uncertainty than we could have ever experienced before and this idea of aiming for a very specific destiny. A nation. And it was only when you got to that destination that you'd be successful and happy. Didn't feel like the right approach to our careers. I think the classic and slightly cliche thing of drawing a little picture on a napkin, in the days where we've met in person and got a coffee, and drawing a little staircase like ladder and almost saying, it's not this anymore. It's squiggly. I just draw a squiggle. And that's where this squiggly career idea really came from this idea that progression doesn't always have to mean promotion that we're working in so many different ways now that the majority of us don't do the same thing, day in day out that most of us don't work on a nine to five and that the three stage life of education work and retirement is this is disappearing people's lives and people are going to work going to work for longer. We are probably all likely at some point to be employed and self employed and perhaps freelance and actually across our working lives. We're probably going to have three to four different types of career. So in I don't think anyone expects to have a job for life anymore. But I think when you start to realise, I'm probably actually going to have three or four different types of career that's really starts to broaden your horizons in terms of how you think about your career. And the thing that we really are really passionate about is how can we democratise career development. So, again, traditionally, in that ladder like world, a lot of the best career development was really the reserve of the most senior people, the more senior you got, the better the access to learning and development. And that's to know it's quite difficult to make development available to everybody in an organisation particularly big organisations. And that's historically how organisations in all command and control world obviously felt like that was the right thing to do. And now, when we have this squiggly environment, yeah, we think everybody should have the opportunity to learn to develop to think about their career to explore their career possibilities. And we think that learning should be affordable, open and accessible and really on demand, so available When people need it, I'm flexible. So it works in a way that works for you, depending on how you work and the rest of your life. And that was, that was the thing that we really wanted to do. We wanted to start developing content, whether it's podcasts, or workshops, or books or whatever we were creating, that really helped solve that problem in a very practical and action focused way. I think we are, I think someone described as the other day is relentlessly practical. Which I think I think was a compliment. But I do think we, we want everything to be everything that we talked about is something that we want people to be able to use the next day at work in a very useful way that makes a difference to your day to day, I guess.
Graham Allcott 11:43
And one of the things I love that you guys do is on your Instagram stories, if you've been to an event or read a book, or heard a talk or something, and I've had this done with me, actually when I was two days later, I see like your Instagram stories. It's like memorising everything I've done for five years in like eight really neat. I've heard on the other side, but I really love those stories because they it just feels like you can take things away really quickly and simply, like you say, apply it the next day.
Sarah Ellis 12:17
Yeah. So I think one of the things that we are really passionate about is the So what? So when people have developed really brilliant ideas or big thinking, in some ways, I think, you know, Ted Talks, and those kind of things are really inspirational. And but they can also feel quite overwhelming to people because perhaps, you know, you watch these really big ideas. And I think often or certainly, if you're anything like me, you struggle to work out what does that mean for me, in my world in the work that I do? And one of the things that I'm always a bit cautious of those big statements actually, you do often see on places like Instagram of where people or brands are really proposing that everyone should just do what you love and these pithy, big answers. aspirational quotes. And I do worry a little bit of that, at times puts pressure on people. You feel like oh, well, maybe what happens if I don't live every moment of every day?
Graham Allcott 13:13
Okay, or what do I need to be doing about that happens, if I don't find my magic purpose?
Sarah Ellis 13:15
Yeah. And I do feel that comparison culture, which I think is a really nice way to describe it is very alive and well in the world of careers. So it's even easier than ever to compare our careers and our progress to our peers, to people we don't know, on Instagram or on LinkedIn. And this sense of, am I going far enough and fast enough. And the thing that we really try to encourage people to figure out is, what does success mean to you, and that will look and feel different to your friends or other members of your family. And if you are guided by some of the things that we talked about, really practically around, knowing your strengths, using your strengths, understanding your values are the things that really motivate and drive you Get rid of those confidence Gremlins or things that hold you back from things you really want to do. Build relationships in a way that works for you, all these kind of practical skills that are very useful regardless of what job or industry you're in. And I think that what that helps you to do is start to make the right choices and decisions for you versus what you think you should do or could do or perhaps what your managers telling you to do. And then I think once you feel like you've got a bit more ownership and control of that squiggle, I think you can make the squiggly career work for you versus feeling like it's something maybe that's happening to you, and causing you anxiety or to feel overwhelmed.
Graham Allcott 14:39
Yeah, for sure. And even just the idea of the squiggle as opposed to viewing a staircase. To me, it sort of opens up your radar in terms of the possibilities and other things that you can explore rather than just looking at what's the thing that I'm supposed to do next. Right.
Sarah Ellis 14:55
Yeah. And we've been conditioned, I think, from that interview question, tell me what you want to be. in five years time, that's a really classic interview question. And if I could kill that interview question I would do, because I feel like it's a really unreasonable expectation now, especially when I think about the last three or four jobs that I've done, didn't exist before I did them in the same guys. So asking me to anticipate that feels pretty unrealistic and unfair. The thing that we would always encourage people to think about is to explore multiple possibilities at the same time. And so that you're always staying very curious, you're keeping an eye open for what you are interested in what you might do what you could do, it doesn't mean that you have to do all of those things. Next, it just means that you are having that broader horizons in terms of your perspective. And we were chatting about Iran amazing if now so I now run my own business that that's how I spend the majority of my time but it's taken six years for me to get to this point. I've run amazing if alongside my full time job. I've run amazing if one day will And I've really evening the weekend. So I've done it in loads of different ways, shapes and forms. And it's always been a career possibility for me. But it only became the next career possibility for me in the last six months or so. And actually, at some point, that one of the reasons I think, for exploring possibilities is sometimes to realise that it's not for you. And I think that's actually part of the reason for doing it. It's okay to try and get as close as you can to something you're intrigued by only to realise actually, perhaps that wouldn't be a good fit for you. Perhaps your strengths are not that useful in that context. I've certainly done that before. I remember thinking, in my marketing years in my number one career, that I really wanted to make TV ads. And the closer I got to the reality of and what that looked and felt like the more I thought, Oh, actually, I wouldn't I wouldn't be very good at that. It takes efficiency project management, and it's kind of lots of steps in a process. I thought it'd be very creative. And it is if you're the person making that but if you're the person Managing the process actually isn't necessarily all. And so I'm I was so glad that I've, you know, spent some time shadowing I'd ask some questions, I went and talk to somebody who led that team. And it just started to feel almost less like the right thing for me, it would have been perfect for somebody else. And actually, I then made a different decision about what I then wanted to explore next as a result of being curious about it. And also then not being afraid to change your mind. You have that prerogative, it's okay to say, actually, that's not for me.
Graham Allcott 17:30
Yeah, we need to make it easier and more acceptable for people to say, number one, I'm experimenting and I don't know, but I'm gonna check it out. And number two, I've checked it out and just decided that it's not what I want to do. It's always like it's blue, isn't it that you're not allowed to make, you know, or it's termed as like making a career mistake and it's almost, you know, we need to categorise it as not a mistake, but just an exploration or curiosity,
Sarah Ellis 17:57
and actually, that word, experimentation I'm seeing a real that's coming up again and again in some of the people that I'm speaking to some of the research that I'm reading. I really like the work of Margaret Heffernan, she's just released a book called Uncharted. And she talks about experimentation is about prototyping the future you want to create. And that's really stuck with me. And she really advocates for us all having an experimenting mindset because she distinguishes between the difference between a complicated world where actually things do fit together a bit easier. It's a bit more like the staircase that I described, and a complex world, which is where we all find ourselves, were actually to navigate complexity. We need to get better at experimenting, actually in quite a thoughtful, practical way. And that really applies I think, how we think about our careers is actually being quite conscious about the experiments that we are undertaking and also then being very comfortable that some of those will work. Better than others, some of those will last longer. And that it is like you say, okay to say that that's not for me, I'm starting to see actually, I feel encouraged that some people I know who have gone into new roles or new industries. And actually then it's only maybe by sometimes there's only so much you can learn before you do something. And I do think once you read it, you really do learn the ins and outs. And I hope it's becoming more okay to actually probation periods to actually be probation for everyone. And, and that that's one of the things that I would really like to change that perhaps probation periods get longer. So perhaps they're more like six months. And it's not a tick box exercise. And also it's not your the word probation is probably not that helpful, because it almost sounds like you're kind of have to keep proving myself and it maybe puts quite a pressure on the individual. But if it was more of a trying out period, or an experimental period, especially if it's if you've moved into something that's quite far away from what you did previously, I think having that six months and then it being absolutely Okay for everyone at the end of that go, this actually hasn't felt quite right. There's actually a company over in the US where they, if that happens, people can leave. And they actually also get cash. So they actually also say, we recognise that we don't want people here where it's just not a good fit, and it's not right for you. So we want
Graham Allcott 20:18
Zappos. Right?
Sarah Ellis 20:19
It is, yeah. So they give people like, I think it's like a couple of months of salary, to just give you an extra time to figure out what you want to do next
Graham Allcott 20:26
and easily because we don't want you here mucking up the culture and being toxic for 20 years, because you don't quite right,
Sarah Ellis 20:32
I need that exact example won't work for everyone. But I do think that sort of thinking is actually useful. And it also recognises that it might just have not been the right time. And it might just have not been quite quite the right job. But who knows, we're seeing more and more what we call Boomerang employees, which is where people are going back to organisations where they've got a strong fit with the culture, the values, and so it might be that that person might come back in three or four years.
Graham Allcott 20:58
And so just building on that experimentation theme and coming back to the COVID thing. So obviously amazing if a large part what you do similar to think productive is you go into businesses, you do workshops, you talk to people face to face, all the stuff that is no longer allowed. Yeah, yes. So what have you been finding in terms of what what have you noticed that's changes for the better and you're doing things in different ways in the last few weeks.
Sarah Ellis 21:24
I think what has been interesting is one of the things that we we really want to do. We talked about this idea of democratising career development. And one of the ways and the roots to that is clearly technology. And technology means that everybody can be part of something, it means it's very scalable. Depending on what you're doing in terms of learning, it can be very on demand, so people can do it at the right moment for them, which is particularly important right now people are caring for people. homeschooling, getting people together all exactly the same time perhaps isn't always that realistic or feasible. For us, I think what's really reassuring is we have seen definitely a surge of interest in terms of people, I think, recognising they need to take more ownership for their own career development. So from an individual perspective, people joining some of our live learning that we do so we do something called populist every Thursday at nine o'clock, where for half an hour, we discuss a podcast topic, and we do some drawing and some tools and just talk about an idea in a bit more detail. And that's just 30 minutes of live career development stuff together as a group. It's sort of our equivalent of what Joe Wix does for millions of people thought about career development, and he did, he's getting everybody fit. So things like that. I don't think I don't think we would have perhaps started that. And I don't think we would have had the interest and support for it if we weren't in the current context that we're in right now. I think that's brilliant that people are really getting the benefit from that I'm prioritising just a little bit of time in their week to spend some time learning Because so often, we hear that your own personal learning related to your job or related to your career ends up being bottom of your to do list, or ends up being the thing that you think I'll just spend half an hour on a Friday afternoon. And as soon as I hear that, I'm always thinking, there is no way, you're going to spend half an hour on a Friday afternoon during doing that. So I think that that has been that gives me a lot of hope that that's perhaps a behaviour and a habit that people are forming right now to prioritise their own learning to care about really care and think about their career and spend some time on their self awareness and actions and what that might mean for them really reflecting. So I think that that's been great. And I think from a company perspective, I've been so impressed by some companies who really recognise that, that people do need more support than ever, right now. And that's not all about career development that's in lots of different areas, whether that is mental well being, whether that is just people who have the ability to listen and have empathy, and I don't think that's always necessarily managers and employee relationships. I think that's peer to peer, I have seen a lot of empathy and kindness. And we were chatting a bit about that before. And I think people are working really hard to try and put themselves in the shoes of other people and realise that, though we are all experiencing, in some ways, the same thing, our own personal experience of it is very, very different. And I think you could be in exactly the same team in exactly the same company right now. And doing exactly the same job and having a dramatically different day to day experience. And, you know, I know some people who are perhaps even quite enjoying the time and space that locked down is affording them. And I know other people who are finding it incredibly overwhelming and a real struggle to make everything work. And we actually did a really interesting poll on Instagram, where we said, Do you feel like you have more or less time to learn right now? And so out of 10,000 people, it was honestly pretty much a 5050 split. Wow between that we never get We never get that in our polls, he always getting like 70 80%. Because the nature of your design community probably, perhaps have some similar thoughts and beliefs. But we can just see at the moment that I think everybody would like the opportunity to learn and perhaps think about themselves, but I think it's more realistic perhaps for some groups than others.
Graham Allcott 25:18
Yeah, definitely, in the much less time than usual cast to create this sort of childcare aspect of it. Like I had a good thing on LinkedIn the other day that was saying, we're not all in the same boat with this. We're in the storm and our boats look very different.
Sarah Ellis 25:35
Yeah, that's a good way of doing it. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 25:37
Yeah. Some of us have bigger boats. And some people are in thingies and some people are swimming and it's like, everybody's different. But yeah, it's the same. But everything else is different. Have you had anyone contacting you guys on you know, Instagram or LinkedIn or anywhere saying I'm on furlough and the two months sitting in my house Not doing my job has really made me realise that I hate my job. Something else. Have you noticed any of that? Like? It's because I think a lot of people are using this as a time to. I think it forces all of us to really think about where our attention goes and what our priorities are. Have you noticed any trends around that?
Sarah Ellis 26:19
Yeah, I think we are. We have been asked the question more, I would say slightly, always that before the career change, the thing that I'm seeing the most is, is now a good time to make a career change. It's almost like the bit before the career changes, like is this the right time? And I think some people are thinking or will actually perhaps is, this is the momentum and the little push that many of us need to do something different. Should I be using this to propel me in a direction that I'm more motivated by? versus and I think on everyone's mind is a job security stability is actually a harder time to do that because will companies be recruiting less will they have less money? To invest, or they're less likely to take a chance on somebody who perhaps has less traditional experience, for example, and I think they're really good questions for people to be asking. The thing that I always encourage people to do is, I think the often when you're making a career change, it always feels really dramatic doesn't it really feels like we were over here, and then we're going to make some really big life changing move into something that is a world apart from where we are today. All of the research study that I've read, and my experience coaching groups and teams of people is the people who make those changes from something to something quite different tend to do in incremental steps. You know, it tends to be movement by degrees rather than a 180 change in direction overnight. Yeah. And and so you were I would always start if you're thinking about making a career change is think about, we talked about earlier, exploring different career possibilities. So what are all the different ways that you could make that change? And what are all the different changes you could make? So in my About Is it about discipline, ie marketing versus sales? Is it about a different type of marketing? Is it about a different type of industry? Is it a different type of company a big versus small, etc? So really trying to tease out? What are the changes you're trying to make? And why? And what are you really what are you really looking for? So what are you hoping will be different in the new world that you're trying to create for yourself? And then be quite creative about, okay, well, where might I get those things? Because for some people, it might be well, I really want more accountability, I want more ability to see projects through from start to finish. But other people it might be, I want to get closer to what it feels like to really run a small business day to day and that's always difficult to get in a really big company. So I think just being really clear about why why do you want to make that move? And what are you hoping to gain? And then just start with your strengths. Always start with what have you got to get and make sure you do the second part. How will that be used? For where it is you're hoping to go. Because I do think when you're changing further away from where you are today, you have to work a bit harder on behalf of the people, you're hoping you're going to employ you to demonstrate the value, the usefulness, how what you've got to give will be really helpful for them. Because you are asking somebody to take perhaps a bit more of a chance on you and it's perhaps a slightly harder choice. Though what I do find reassuring is things like Matthew Simon's work and rebel ideas on cognitive diversity does demonstrate if we get people from with different backgrounds with different experiences together. Those are the people that will solve the hard problems for organisations. And it's definitely something that's a newer thought for me so something I'm still mulling over but what I hope is that will help leaders and organisations to be convinced of the value of bringing together diverse in its largest and broadest sense teams of people are not feeling like if we work in And retail, we can only recruit people who've got retail experience. And that is somebody from a startup could actually be really valuable in that world. And I do see the progressive companies that we work with through amazing if certainly more and more open minded to, you know, not necessarily a traditional staircase like ladder like CV or LinkedIn profile. And then what I really hope that does is it proves that that does work that different people, different backgrounds with different experiences, or have opportunities to add value. And I think there's just a natural shake up of things going on, whether we like it or not right now, so that hopefully presents some ropes to jump on and grab and swing through the jungle and those kind of things too, right. Yeah, I said, I really hope so. I think one of the barriers that we do here sometimes is where people say they've had particularly squiggly careers, is just how you articulate those to other people. And I think just just looking for those I was like, look for the constant threads often We might have done very different things, there are usually still things that we have in common about every opportunity that we look for. So I mainly have worked in, in very large organisations, but I have done lots and lots of different jobs. And what I started to realise is, what all of those jobs have in common is actually is about creation and newness. So I was often the slightly weird and wonderful one in a very big kind of corporate setting. And every corporate setting needs need some of those were two wonderful people. And that's why I often did jobs that people hadn't done before. Because the ambiguity the blank piece of paper, pneus of it really appeal appeal to me. So for me, it's a really big leap to run my own company, because I'm used to being in massive structures where you've got lots of support around you lots of stability. I've worked places like Sainsbury's and Barclays. And I was thinking, can I am I going to be successful in inverted commas? If I go from a 200,000 people organisation to you know what a two to five
I just said about you don't go 180. And I've already said it wasn't 180 overnight, it was six year process. Yeah. I think one of the things that reassured me in terms of would I enjoy it? Did I know my why of that move? And did I have anything to eat was I actually going to be useful? was I going to be any good was when I started to look at all the things I had in common in terms of the choices that I made. Actually, lots of those things are useful in running your own business, creating value, spotting opportunities, developing ideas, helping to develop other people. All of those things are as present in amazing as they were in the jobs that I had at Sainsbury's. I'm just doing it in a very different context. Now.
Graham Allcott 32:41
I'd love to hear more about that transition. I remember when we had dinner, which I was like a long time ago. I can't think when that was was that like about October last year or something? It was 2018 2019 it I think
Sarah Ellis 32:57
it was 2019.
Graham Allcott 32:58
Yeah, but Anyway, whenever we had that data whenever that was, I remember you saying that you were. So you were still running quite fast growing marketing agency, and you were fitting in amazing if around the edges of that evenings, weekends, one day a week, that kind of thing. And I remember just thinking to myself, Wow, you've got two entities there that are both tugging on your attention and demanding for as much of your attention as possible. And whenever you're running something, it's tempting that that becomes the thing that you spend your evenings and weekends on, let alone have another organisation and a business partner who presumably also wants as much of your time and attention as possible. So just wondering, how did you juggle that and what did you learn about yourself by having to juggle those those two roles that both have big responsibilities?
Sarah Ellis 33:51
Yeah, I think so. I don't think it's for everyone. It's the first thing to say. And I think one of my values say one of my core values, the things that something is it part of my DNA and something that really motivates and drives me is and it doesn't sound very glamorous, but it's definitely true is variety. I really, I really, I really thrive on variety. And actually is one of the reasons I also enjoy running my thing because running your own businesses sobriety is every day because because certainly No two days are the same. And I think for me, when I've done multiple jobs simultaneously, every single one of those I felt like I was learning and growing. I felt like I was better at each of them, because I had done a multitude of things. So I felt like they had nice overlap, but without being the same or contradictory. And I also felt I was always doing things that I enjoyed, because it is a lot of your time. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. It is a lot of your time. And certainly by the time I was managing director for creative agency, I'd got a one year old, he obviously became a two year old and that was a whole new that was a whole new thing as well like you know, something else to put on your time. retention. Exactly. And I think I probably found that one and we can talk about that I've actually found that harder, much, much harder than I, I found that significantly more difficult than actually I did doing, you know, multiple jobs. So I think it's in my nature, I think I have the capability to be able to switch between different contexts. And I'd also been doing I've been practising it, that point about deliberate practice. I've been practising it for a while, because I actually started working four days a week at Sainsbury's five or six years ago when actually it was very unusual to work four days a week and not have kids. And to be to be running this little entity. I don't think anyone knew quite what to make of me, but again, it was okay because I was in that way to wonderful bracket. So I was probably just being very Sara like, because
Graham Allcott 35:44
on the surface, that's the side hustle that you're gonna leave us for, isn't it? That's the way a lot of people might look at that.
Sarah Ellis 35:50
Yeah, I think I had I was very lucky at that time. I had a boss who was on the board at Sainsbury's lady called Sarah Warby. And Sarah I think recognised that One day a week was me, giving me the opportunity, I think to just do things differently. So to start from scratch and to be really creative to experiment in just ways that you can't do within a corporate setting, but I was still fully committed to I really loved my I left Sainsbury's, I loved working there and I loved my roles and that I had at Sainsbury's, I was head of corporate responsibility, I moved on to be head of marketing strategy. And those roles were pivotal. I grew so much I worked with some brilliant people. And actually, I had no intention at that time of leaving Sainsbury's to go and when amazing if I was just, I just liked the duality of it, the polymath ness like, of doing those things. And I think people can say can see that and they can feel that and I was as dedicated to salesperson to what I was doing. And I think it actually comes down to trust. I think if you work for somebody who trusts you, and trust that you You will make it work. And that when you say, You're still really committed to it, and that you're not spending all your time wishing you were somewhere else, then I think you just prove that by how you show up how you turn up. People can tell I think, whether you care or not, and I always really did. So that always works really well. And then I think I did obviously get to a natural point where I thought, actually now I just feel like the time to make the very slow, gradual leap are eventually made.
Graham Allcott 37:25
Yeah, well, and it helps when you've got a book that's number one Sunday Times Bestseller as the business a little bit of an adjustment. So we're talking about the squiggly career and I go to bat a couple of bits from that book in a minute. Just before we talk about the book, what have you learned by now being full time in a small business and particularly what message or less than would you give to anybody who's in a big entity and thinking about doing something similar and is frightened by or interested in
Sarah Ellis 37:57
so the best thing about running amazing here And I'm pretty convinced that I wouldn't do it otherwise is the fact that I have a business partner. And my business partner Helen, we met over 20 years ago at university, and she's very different to me. She's very extrovert. I'm very introvert, we live our lives in quite different in quite different ways. But we really love working together and are very unite very united in our values and our drive for this kind of democratising career development idea that we're both kind of passionate about. And so, actually what I've learned since I've been in it full time, I was always actually a little bit worried that Helen and I were too always too similar. So there we got different personalities. You know, we both been very similar jobs in big corporates and lead very big teams. And I wondered if, when we were both in it full time, would we both clash a bit or try to lead both to take charge a little bit too much, and would we be complimentary or would we just have too much sameness and I was very mindful if you want different people to bring different things, but actually, the longer that, we've worked together in this fully kind of immersed way, I've actually seen more of our differences than I have our similarities. So yes, we absolutely have the same vision for what we want to do and our business, but actually how we work, our ideas, the way that we think is all pretty different. And so I found that actually reassuring when I started to feel more and more differences, both. And also I think you For me personally, I think I need that other person so that you've got someone to pick you up when you do go for the run, and you have the lows. And and you want someone to share the highest with as well. And there are so many highs and lows. I mean, everybody talks about the analogy of the highs are higher, the lows are lower. I think it is true and I think partly is true because it's your own is your own entity. So you feel everything more keenly, like Sainsbury's had, if I think about some of the impacts that Sainsbury's have, and some of the challenges and some of the wins, but they're obviously massive compared to you know, the positive impact Sainsbury's can have on communities is massive compared to the whole But we do. But I think just how you feel everything when you have worked on it and it's gone of your ideas is just so much heightened. So I think just having someone to go on the roller coaster with for me personally, I think has been critical. I don't think I would do it by myself. And I'm really glad that we have that difference of styles personality contribution, but that we share such a strong sense of what we're doing and why we're doing it.
Graham Allcott 40:25
Yeah. And and difference expressed as complimentary rather than conflicting, right, because the important thing with business partners, you said about sayings was there and you for a while you were the head of corporate responsibility and society there. Yeah. So I suppose the obvious question about Sainsbury's right now is if you're still working there, what would be the conversations you'd be having? What are some of the the key issues that you see that supermarkets have risen to the challenge around or not risen to the challenge around?
Sarah Ellis 40:57
Well, thanks for is is a genuinely value. Let business aspect right now I sound exactly like I did when I was the head of corporate responses. But I worked in enough big organisations, I think, to know when to feel the difference between values that are just on a wall because a company thinks they should be and values that are lived and breathed day in day out by the company and they and they kind of really mean them and they hold themselves to account to those valleys. And certainly Sainsbury's is an organisation where I think because it's where it started, in terms of where they source food from the saintly farm and the family and it's always kept that sense of wanting to support their colleagues and the communities that they serve is the way that they will describe it. So the shops that we will go into whether you're going into a shop at the moment or getting online delivery, it will have been incredibly stressful the pressure on supply chains and it is a people based business. You know, there are lots of people coming into work every day. The decisions they would have had to make very very quickly and the pressure they will have been under scrutiny will, uh will have been immense. And I know from the people that I'm still friends with who've been working there, everybody is has been so committed to wanting to kind of help wanting to play a positive role so that we already feel that is in such a tough time. We always want to, we want to try and help if we can. And I think that's that's certainly what I've seen in St. Louis, and I'm sure lots of the other supermarkets is people going, how can we help and I had a lovely example of how Sainsbury's recently they delivered a load of Easter eggs that they had to tear homes up and down the country. And I think just those small moments of kindness, and trying to help in any way they can, that that little small story that somebody told me he actually works in a care home sector and said I've contacted Sainsbury's and they they've made that happen, and they will, they will have made that happen in the midst of so much other stuff operationally happened. And it just it didn't surprise me but it it reassured me that they are Continuing to stick to the things that they were really good at when I when I was there. So I'm sure it's tough. And I'm sure they won't get it right every time because nobody does a business at that scale is almost an impossible task. I do hope, though, is that I think everybody the general public, I hope has given every organisation that kind of the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do their best in what is difficult circumstances. And of course, some people kind of get it more right, right than others. But certainly, I think they they tried very quickly to do the social distancing. I think the prioritising vulnerable elderly people in terms of the shopping segments, they, I think, was a brilliant idea. I think most supermarkets have done that. And actually, they have got back on their feet. I think surprisingly quickly. Certainly, when I've been to the supermarket over the last couple of weeks, they seem to have managed to get things back on the shelves. And if you think about the scale of that challenge, how quickly they've managed to restore some level of normality. I think it pretty incredible.
Graham Allcott 44:01
It does feel a bit like that when you walk into a supermarket now. It's like you're not having this end of days feeling like having a few weeks ago of like there being one lonely jar of expensive. I've done the entire Tinder. I just feel like it's got better.
Sarah Ellis 44:18
I think the day that I could get a really long behind smart suit, and the day that that was back in back on the shelves, I thought, hey, there's hope. There's hope. Yeah, we might make it.
Graham Allcott 44:29
It's all gonna be okay. One of the things I wanted to talk about from your book was the idea of the personal Manifesto, which I really liked. So this is whole chapter that talks about how to develop a personal Manifesto. Do you want to just explain what your personal manifesto is, and why is that important to people?
Sarah Ellis 44:47
Well, I think personal manifestos or vision boards or whatever people want to do, and I don't think it matters, what you call them are just a really good way of, I think getting out of your head the things that are important. To you and making them real in some way. So whether you like to visualise things, whether you like to write or draw or create, or do you think having this sense of the things that really matter to you, your constants. And I think those reminders can be particularly useful when you're trying to make decisions when things are hard, perhaps. Or if you're just trying to think if you're just feeling a bit stuck. I think again, having something that you feel grounded by and it just feels like it's your creation of yourself can be certainly I found has been really useful. And actually fully enough for somebody who I'm usually pretty visual, like we run all our workshops, doing like live drawing, and we do all of our tools live. I actually prefer writing to doing vision boards, and Helen's very much a vision board person. And actually I first did this, I was on a leadership programme where they encourage you to do that classic thing of sending a letter to yourself. send a letter to yourself in six weeks time. about what you're thinking, feeling, what do you want to do differently as a result of the learning experience that you have. And that was almost a mini version of this manifesto that I ended up creating. And I think, for me, what it, what it's useful for is just the things that guide me. So mine talks a lot about thinking, creating and learning. And that almost we talked before about squiggly careers. And you can never quite sense what might happen next. And we're all about exploring possibilities. The things that stay true for me are always this always these idea of creating and learning and actually writing it in a way that works for me in language. That is my own language, again, just helps I think me to just, you know, feel really grounded in the decisions that I make. And just remind you, I think what's most important to you.
Graham Allcott 46:48
So there's a couple of bits of yours that really the Learn bit stay curious and always be a work in progress I really like and the bit at the bottom just says happiness is Tom brackets partner Max when he sleeps, close family and friends sports developing and launching new enterprises helping people thrive in a squeaky career. The seaside autumn fiction cookies and a cup of tea. I just have the end here.
Sarah Ellis 47:14
Basically, that is my life in a paragraph. Yeah.
Pretty much. And it's funny when you do that exercise, I think, you know, you talk about how powerful gratitude and reflecting about what you do have, rather than what you don't have can be Yeah, and I think when I remember writing that for the first time, so I've only I've written the I first write this six, seven years ago, and I've only updated it once the kind of happinesses section and that was because I had a baby because I have Max. Max obviously, sort of it was sort of mandatory, but he's getting a bit better now, though. He sleeps a little bit more, but everything else is the same. Yeah. And I find that really interesting. And I think when I first wrote it, it, it did actually help me to figure out that A lot of the things that made me really happy are quite simple things. And there were things actually I already had in my life, which I was very grateful for. And I think you work hard to keep those things. They think they just want them and to make time for them and to prioritise them. And if I get to the point, I'm someone who could probably work a lot of the time, as in all day, every day, including weekends, because I really enjoy the work that I do. But I really feel it if I've not read any fiction book for a while, or if I live to walk, and if I'm walking really helps my thinking and my ideas. And if I was able to go to the seaside or walk by the sea, and just thinking when was the last time I did those things? is a good question. I think to ask yourself, I don't believe in the work life balance thing, but I think you are constantly calibrating. You're constantly thinking, actually, how do I integrate all of the things that are important to me in a way that works for me, and not necessarily in this moment, so in this day or in this week, but maybe in this month? I was even reflecting on last week. Had a particularly busy week workwise. But then both Helen and I this week have prioritised more time for individual learning. And we have protected that time. And actually, I'm going to take a day off for Max's birthday next Tuesday. And I'm going to spend a bit more time doing some running and some yoga this week and just making sure that nothing goes out of kilter for too long. I think it's just been a good day to day reminder for me,
Graham Allcott 49:24
because that's the thing about work life balance, isn't it is that whatever you call it, it's the floor term. But you know, if you're doing work that you love, it's very easy to say, I can be working all the time and work doesn't feel like work and whatever, but you are still neglecting, you know, maybe running or health or family. Like there is still something that you're neglecting even when you love what you do, right?
Sarah Ellis 49:45
Yeah. And I think you have to recognise that by doing those other things, you will do better work, which is definitely true. And you have to recognise that by doing those are the things it also makes you more resilient. So I was interviewing Martha lane Fox last week. I was about resilience specifically. And I said to her, what do you think has made us the most, like what's helped you to build your resilience personally and professionally. And actually, she talked about it, it's having other things, it's having other things outside of work that you appreciate, are grateful for, that you enjoy, and you don't become so all consumed and all focused on just the work, but then things go wrong, or if things get in your way, and that's your everything, then obviously, that has a it's much harder to then generally be resilient. And I thought that was really interesting observation from somebody like her who's on the board of Chanel in Twitter, she's read lots of successful companies, and also personally have to recover from a very serious life threatening car accident where she had to relearn to walk again. And so that was just that I found that really interesting. So, though, I'm definitely someone who could be tempted by and fall into the trap of working too much. I think I have really, I really recognised that point about how I will do better work. Club really motivates us to do better work. So that stops me doing it. But also just the the point about being resilient, staying curious and not always feeling like, everything has to be always about winning. Because I think when you run your own business, there is that temptation of thinking, well, if I don't do it, and no one else does, which is also true. But I think you'd have to let that go. And you have to let go some of the stereotypes about entrepreneurs like working 24, seven, and you've never stopped working. And that's the life of an entrepreneur and I don't want that to be my life. And I don't buy that either, is the only way to run your own business successfully is to never stop working.
Graham Allcott 51:35
It's really dangerous, the whole hustle culture thing. And back to the Instagram comparisons and the fact that people often do compare themselves in very negative ways. Yeah, it doesn't feel like a good strategy. And it also doesn't feel like a description of lots of people who I know who runs successful businesses, right. So they're obviously doing it a different way, but then they're not bothering to put that on. Instagram videos.
Sarah Ellis 52:01
Yeah. And I think that is probably the thing to remind yourself off. If you're listening to this and thinking about setting up your own business, or you're setting up and thinking, am I reading this in the right way, need probably the stories that we hear the most, tend to be from maybe that more traditional entrepreneur hustle types who are also very good at of often using social media, and sharing those men that's part of their raison d'etre and how they work. Whereas actually, there'll be loads of very successful businesses under the surface, where their stories are often told, or they just not not as well known. And those people often is that because you said, aren't running businesses in those ways? I mean, I would never want people to think that you don't work really hard, because I do think that is true. And I think I worked really, really hard when I worked in corporate environment as well. Yeah. For me, that's no different. They do work hard. Do you care about your work? Those things are still true for me. And I I do think one of the things that's really important certainly for us that amazing is are we Running a sustainable business. So a part of being sustainable is we need to be sustainable as individuals like feeling mentally healthily, I want our business to last for forever. I don't I don't see it as a, you know, I guess because we're not trying to create an entity to sell. I guess that puts you in a very different mindset, perhaps to the people who have to drive incredibly fast growth in a very short period of time, which I appreciate brings a whole new set of pressures working in that more private equity type world
Graham Allcott 53:28
for so yeah, I've been asked loads of times over the years, sort of 1212 years into my business now. And whenever that question comes up, what what is your exit look like? I always just say death. Because it's not about that, right? It's you know about the business, doing good work, and continuing to do that as long as I can possibly make that's a really good, that's a really good answer. And one thing I wanted to touch about before we finish is you will tell me about this podcast series that you're doing around us. The extra So do you want to just tell us about that?
Sarah Ellis 54:02
Yeah, that'd be great. So we are launching a new six part Ask the Expert series, which is part of the squiggly careers podcast. So we've been doing squiggly careers now weekly for over two years. So I think there's about 140 142 episodes to catch up on if you're new to it. But we thought particularly right now, it does feel like there are some skills that are particularly relevant and pertinent to the time we will find ourselves in. So things like resilience, which is why I was talking to Martha lane Fox last week. psychological safety purpose. So each week for the next six weeks, we've got a very short interview that will go on a Thursday is about 10 or 12 minutes with real experts on each of those skills. So Martha lane Fox, talking about resilience. rich person who's the founder of headspace talking about mindfulness, Simon Sinek, talking about purpose, Holly Tucker, who's the founder of not on the high street and Holly and co talking about creativity. So just briefly, In short, specific snippet interviews, that will be full of inspiration, but actually, again, very focused on, as we said at the start of our conversation today, action and practical, useful ideas in terms of how you can develop that skill for yourself, and why we think it'll be particularly useful over the next year 18 months. So if those skills of feel like they might be something you're interested in, I can tell you the certainly the three interviews that I've done so far, the people are just absolutely brilliant. They really blew me away in terms of just both their insights that but also their ability to translate that into something that will be useful for all of us in our work, regardless of what you do.
Graham Allcott 55:37
Yeah, so go check that one out and go and also check out the screen the career your number one Sunday morning business book, which is very cool. So if people want to find more of what you do and connect with you, how do they How do they connect with you?
Sarah Ellis 55:51
So we're on Instagram where we're just amazing if you can follow us and you can always dm as they're just quickly careers is our podcast. Bye bye. So Sarah Ellis and Helen Tupper, really easy to find on LinkedIn. So you can always connect with us through LinkedIn. And we do we really like to connect with our communities. So if you've got any questions based on the conversation, I've had a ground today or you want to explore something a bit further, or you're interested in any of the workshops that we might run for yourself or for your company at please do get in touch. We really do like to kind of chat to people personally, it's always a really nice thing to do.
Graham Allcott 56:23
Cool. Thanks, Sarah. And we were chatting a bit before so I just realised I've kept you way longer than it was in a day. So I hope you're not now late for your next day. But so say thanks for being on beyond busy. And so interesting time, isn't it? But I look forward to hearing more about your learnings and what you would have interrupted over the next few months and how we all come out of this. So thanks again.
Sarah Ellis 56:46
Thank you so much for being by I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Graham Allcott 56:55
So thanks again to Sarah for being on the show. One thing I wanted to mention is Is that as soon as we hung up, Sara started talking to me about this new thing that Amazing If have just launched called the redundancy reset. So basically, it's a free programme. And if you are going through redundancy as part of COVID and what's going on, then Amazing If I put together this programme of free resources, so there's a reboot section, which is an online career development programme. There's a reflect section so all about how to overcome confidence Gremlins and lots of other resources to help you get in tune with yourself and then reset. So virtual coaching sessions and Q and A's and all that kind of good stuff. So we'll put the link to that in the show notes which you can find out to getbeyondbusy.com and yeah, it's just a great little programme free resources. So if you are going through redundancy, if you're interested in maybe just exploring what your options are Around, taking on a new career, just how to get support in what's going to be a very interesting job market over the next few months. So really good, you know, extra layer of resources from Amazing If all for free. And they just want to help so go to get beyond busy calm and put the link to that in the show notes there. And you can also find it on the amazingif.com website. And I also just wanted to say so our sponsor for the show is Think Productive, which is my company and we have now completed the process of moving all of our workshops to be available as live virtual. So if you are still working in a team if you want some help around productivity, we can do all of our usual stuff. And of course we've also got our dedicated resources for working from home. So you can find the dedicated stuff at thinkproductive.com/WFH and then all of our regular stuff just that thinkproductive.com or thinkproductive.co.uk if you're in the UK and yeah we're we're merrily plodding on with trying to just help as many people as possible in either paid capacities or unpaid capacities, it really kind of depends on where clients are at. And you know, we've got a whole range of clients from kind of retail operations who are really struggling through to a few clients in kind of pharmaceuticals and medicine and health and all that sort of stuff who are really really busy right now. So yeah, full range for us. And we're trying to do our best to really just support people and continue our work around spreading the good message of productivity and work life balance. So yeah, I Think Productive our sponsors for the show, go and check out thinkproductive.com and the other thing I just want to say is for the last couple of weeks, as I record this, I've been sending out an email newsletter, this is the first time I've ever done this myself. Think productive has obviously had one for years, which you can of course sign up to it think productive calm. But mine is brand new. And I had 17 people signed up before the first one came out. So it felt very lonely and very, you know, felt like one of those mountains where I'm just, you know, sat at the bottom looking up. But sure enough, we're on about 150 people now it's growing pretty steadily. And people finding us from all kinds of different places. So if you want to sign up to that, it's just grahamallcott.com. And then on the main homepage, and actually at the bottom of every other page, you'll see a little form, just fill that in and sign up. The idea is just to send out, I'm calling it rev up for the week. So the idea is every Sunday night, I just send out an upbeat thought or idea for the week ahead. And the idea is it just puts you in a positive frame of mind for the week. So if you're, you know, sort of jumping through cornflakes on a on a Monday morning and looking through emails, mine will be one of the first that you'll see. Maybe look at it Sunday night. Maybe you're looking at it if you're lucky enough to be on a train or on a to commuting. I just missed trains. I really miss trade. That's one of those things. I honestly, this is probably the longest I've been in one city for probably the best part of a decade, I would have thought. And yeah, just, I just do have an itch to get on a train and go somewhere far away. But there you go. That's just that's my own little issue to deal with. The only other thing I wanted to do before we finish this, just to thank Mark Steadman and podium my producer and platform for the show. And thanks also to Emily, who has been doing a great job of just getting the numbers up of beyond busy listeners and just promoting the show. So if you are following me on Instagram, if you're not, I'm just at Graham Allcott happy there. But yeah, she's been putting out little pieces. Do clips of each episodes. And that's just been really well received lots of people viewing those and liking those, and then put it the same stuff out on LinkedIn, and on Twitter as well. So, yeah, just really, you know, we're starting to get professional in this whole beyond busy thing. And you know, we're upping our game, what can I say is it was actually my plan for the year anyway. And I guess COVID-19 leaves us with very little else to do so I have to follow through on my intention. So that's that. I hope you enjoyed the episode. I certainly did. And we'll be back in two weeks time, but other episodes, we've been kind of putting a few episodes in the down weeks where we've got interesting COVID stuff. Helpful stuff all that so we might do that a bit more. But yeah, rest assured, we're back for sure. That I've said so until then.
Take care. Bye for now.