Beyond Busy #94 with Eleanor Tweddell
Graham Allcott 0:04
This is beyond busy. The show where we talk productivity, work life balance, and how people define happiness and success. All the big questions for work and life. My name is Graham Allcott. I'm your host for the show. And on this episode, I'm talking to the wonderful Eleanor Tweddell. She talks very passionately about her experience of redundancy, and how that led her to become the founder of Another Door, helping other people in similar situations. And she's just written a book called ''Why Losing Your Job could be the Best Thing that Ever Happened to You'. So we talked about her emotional journey through being made redundant and having string of successful roles in communications in various big companies, and then finding yourself on the the end of redundancy. And we talk about all kinds of redundancy coping mechanisms and things that if you're going through that right now, which I know a lot of people are, or if you're worried that that might be you in the future, I think will really help. And regardless of what you're working on, and you know, where you sit with that, right now, I think any of those big crisis moments, you know, COVID proves this battle. So redundancy is another one of those, any of those big crisis moments really help us to establish what's most important in work and life. So I think regardless of your situation, there's loads to take in here and a lot of wisdom and really interesting perspectives to take from lls so that you're gonna really enjoy this episode. Before we get into it. I just want to say very quickly that we are continuing our campaign of free webinars. And if you have been joining us on some of the free webinars that we've been doing through think productive, then thank you, it's been really lovely to have such a big turnout for each of the webinars that we've been doing. And we've got some coming up in December, which I'd love to just very quickly tell you about. So I'm launching a book with Collette Hannigan, it's called 'How to Have the Energy: Nutrition to Boost your Brain. And basically, the idea is Colette really helped me. She was actually on the podcast talking about this a year or so ago. And she helped me to really transform my own diet to just have really strong levels of energy, I stopped having that kind of 4pm slump in the afternoon. So really powerful stuff. And we were booked together about it. And we are basically re releasing that book, under a new name. So it's now going to be called 'How to Have the Energy'. And we are doing some free webinars to tell you more, we're going to tell you about the book and just give you tips and tricks to help you eat to have the best possible energy for work. And also, there'll be time for q&a. So if you've got questions about nutrition, about diet, about what to eat, what kind of things should be in your diet or not, and debunking some of the kind of bad science that's out there around nutrition, then Colette can help. She just is just a voracious reader on this stuff, and will definitely really help you with answering those questions. So the dates are the seventh of December, the 11th of December and the 16th of December, they're all kind of early afternoon. UK time. So also pretty good times if you're listening in the US and and also obviously in Central Europe and elsewhere to say if you want to sign up, then if you just go to the think productive website, think productive.co.uk.
Just click on the free webinars thing at the top, and then you'll see those dates there. And that will sign you up to those free webinars. And we'll also put the link in the show notes where you'll find details of all our previous episodes and everything that we talked about in this episode with Eleanor. That's all to getbeyondbusy.com. So go to getbeyondbusy.com. And you can get the link straight from there to go ahead and sign up for those free webinars. Hope to see you there. So let's get into this episode's really interesting conversation all about redundancy. All about how when one door closes another door opens. So the founder of Another Door here is my conversation with Eleanor Tweddell.
So I got my tea because you arrived early on the podcast stream, Eleanor, so let's just start with them with tea in hand. Welcome to Beyond Busy. Weddell How you doing? Thank you very much. Well, you have to get there early these days because you never know about tech to you, you know isn't going to work. So yeah, I was early. Yeah, I was doing a zoom webinar this morning for a new client and it was the first time using these particular slides in particular polls and all that and I've I've worked out that the best way to make it okay in my head is to just have someone else on there who's on your side. So basically one of the HQ staff from think productive just sat in on it and then it's like, Can you just have the cut and paste ready for this link that we've got sent out and you know, do the poll if it screws up wherever and just having that other person like even if you don't really use them? Just to ninja preparedness, I guess
Eleanor Tweddell 5:03
it's your it's your sort of sidekick who's ready to step in when you need them. Yeah, that's the thing.
Graham Allcott 5:10
Life is better when you've got a trusty sidekick, right? Yeah,
Eleanor Tweddell 5:12
definitely. I like that.
Graham Allcott 5:14
So let's talk about another door. So we'll get on to the fact that you've written a book all about this in a minute. But then you've set up, you set up another door a couple of years ago, which is all about supporting people who have been made redundant. And I kind of felt like, with what as what else is happening in the world right now, we may well be in a period where a lot of people are going to be made redundant. And so even if it's not you right now, it could be in the future. And so let's just start with that. So this comes from a personal story of yourself. But firstly, just tell us about Another Door and what it is that you do.
Eleanor Tweddell 5:53
Yeah, so another door was, actually was a blog a couple of years ago, and I was made redundant, kind of wondered what to do next. And part of that wondering and exploring was, let's do something I've never done before, which is blog. And I didn't even have a clue how to set up a blog, nevermind, write it and put it out to the world. But I thought, why not. And I just started writing about how I was feeling about being out of work, but also not quite knowing what to do next. And I loved it. I just found it kind of like almost part of helping me move on. Yeah, so that's where it sort of started. And Another Door obviously comes from the good old quote, when one door closes. And somebody had actually said that to me. As we were all getting made redundant in the office at the time. Somebody said, Oh, well, you know, when one door closes, another door opens. And it really irritated me.
Graham Allcott 7:02
I was gonna say, that's kind of not the message you want on the light, you want people to be saying, you know, to be sympathizing with you and saying, you know, not acknowledging your pain in that moment. Just be like, Oh, that's fine. So reminds me of that scene. Do you watch The Office?
Yeah, yeah. And there's that scene where there's some talk of redundancies and then they cut to big Keith news, such a character and the I think is a woman says to him like, what you just do just leave and he's just like, by all the others are having this massive draw it is I just don't care.
Eleanor Tweddell 7:40
I think Big Keith keeps helping people on LinkedIn at the moment, isn't he? You can, I think someone paid him to read their CV, and they posted it on LinkedIn. It is amazing. You've got to search.
Graham Allcott 7:55
I'd love to have some Big Keith to run the appraisals in Think Productive. Yeah, amazing.
Eleanor Tweddell 8:01
Yeah. Always the same.
Graham Allcott 8:05
Are you are a fan? There you go. So so so obviously, you're in the office, someone sending you this slightly annoying, nauseating quote of one door closes, another door opens? Did you know at that moment that that's going to be your company? Or what was the time period before that became the apparent name that it became?
Eleanor Tweddell 8:25
No, that was sort of day two of finding out you're about to lose your job. So I was still in a very irritated sort of step, shall we say? The shocking step of, you know, not in the mood for these cliches. And in fact, cliches was one of the blogs that I wrote about a couple of days later, when I kind of got my head around blogging and writing notes and things. Because that's all you're surrounded by, for the first kind of had a couple of weeks. Even it's cliches, when you tell people it's our Well, you know, there'll be something around the corner, or, you know, all these things happen. And I don't know, it's just a stream of cliches. So I sort of wrote about it as basically writing about everything that was irritating me, or coming into my head thinking why is this such a thing? Why am I not dealing with this very well. And eventually, I thought, right, I've got to put this to one side and turn this into a good feeling stop kind of getting stuck in this kind of perpetuating sort of, you know, mood mood Hoover. So I thought another door, I like that, let's explore it and when I looked into the quotes and what it was about, and it was actually about, you know, you so much looking at that door that's closed that you don't actually see that there's another one open or even that there's opportunity behind you because you're just still looking at this door that's closed. Hmm, it really resonated and I thought about Oh, this could be a gift that I never even knew I wanted. And that's when it sort of started changing. So it wasn't so much a business at that point, it was still more an idea of community and idea of exploring opportunity in amongst this feeling of loss. Yeah. And it still is that to a degree. I started different businesses, not another door, in my first year of, of being made redundant, so another door is still sort of growing with me. And I'm still sort of discovering what that's about.
Graham Allcott 10:35
And it also made it into a club for people who've been made redundant. Right, which is kind of like a weird. It's kind of a weird idea. Like, is that a club that people would want to join? But yeah, tell us about that.
Eleanor Tweddell 10:48
Exactly. I mean, who wants to join that club? You don't start the year going - Do I really want for my goals. I want to join Another Door. And it is it's a club. I mean, it's a program, really. So it's a five week program. That takes people through the stages of redundancy. And it's like an outplacement program. And outplacement being the sort of support some people get when they get made redundant from organizations, but I felt hugely frustrated with what I was being offered at the time. And actually what how other people were being treated as well. So I kind of thought, is there something here, there's something missing, I don't want a CV workshop, I don't want to just be put through an interview prep process. I want to explore how I'm feeling and give me time to think about this. So that's where my writing really started to sort of evolve into all hat. What am I going through, and I guess it's a grief curve to a degree, you're losing something but exploring it. And so yeah, the the club is the steps. It's the five steps in the book, it's the five steps in the program. But the club just grows and grows, I I've got a credit coach that I work with. And she's amazing. She helps people with their confidence with all the stuff they think they need CV and interview skills, LinkedIn, all that good stuff. But really, it's more about providing you time to think about yourself and what you want, which sounds hugely indulgent. But it's so important to make sure that you feel like you're in control, and you're taking decisions that you want to take not that it's been done to you.
Graham Allcott 12:34
And you took there's a bit of writing that you did about your own being made redundant. And you talk about the emotions of guilt, pain and embarrassment. And I feel like there's, like you know, anything about cliches before feels like the times where you get cliches thrown at you in your lives are those really dark moments where people don't know what else to say. So it's like, you'd be made redundant, or somebody close to you died, or a breakup or whatever, you know, like, or serious illness like those tend to be the times where people resort to cliches, but how did you sort of process those emotions? And what did you learn through that sort of sense of the guilt and pain and embarrassment of redundancy?
Eleanor Tweddell 13:20
Yes, such a good point. I actually use a quote from Russell Brand in the book, which says, He once said, an interview "cliche saves us from thinking". And I think that's why it comes out and powerful, incredibly awkward about what you've just told them. And you're right could be loss or pain, or somebody sharing something, you come out with a cliche, because you desperately want to help them, but you can't. So you give them a cliche gift. So yeah, I think you're right. And then guilt and shame and embarrassment is all this kind of slushy, this slushy feeling that's kind of it's within you that you're not sure what to do with. I guess what's going through your mind is how, how do I solve this problem? I've got a prop, I've made a problem. How do I solve it? But entirely your internal chatter is still very much analyzing what's happened and it's trying to say, was it you? Did you do something wrong? You know, have you actually been found out Have you could you do that job anyway? How are you ever gonna get the confidence to go back out and, and tell everybody about yourself again and sell yourself and all that inner chatter mixed up with this guilt of I think for me, passing the guilt was more about, how my family feeling like if I put extra pressure on them now because I don't have an income coming in. And it was Christmas when I got made redundant. It was a couple of days beforeChristmas.
Graham Allcott 14:56
Wow, good timing.
Eleanor Tweddell 14:57
Oh, amazing timing soon You're spending Christmas in a worry state, but trying to smile and all of that kind of feeling of guilt. And you know, I'm going to have to do something about this. I'm going to have to find a solution. And it sloshes around. So I think how I describe it in the book is around. Yeah, it's the grief curve. It's that great, you know, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross grief curve, but it actually is more like a bowl of spaghetti. Because you continuously go around these loops of feeling Okay, the next day you feel you've got this. And next hour, you think, "oh, my goodness, I'm in panic, how am I going to solve this". And it just kind of keeps going. And that's the bit that I realize you've got to work on. So not necessarily, you've got to work on the doing, which is, you know, find a job, press the Application button, send in as many CV's as possible that's doing, but actually being just sitting with being and getting yourself calm about the situation and trying to smooth out that sort of emotional curve. I think that's the important bit. So yeah, emotions are huge, and emotions can hold us back. And they can propel us forward, see if we can get hold of them and really own it and really feel like we understand what's going on, we've got more of a chance of owning what happens next
Graham Allcott 16:22
Yeah, one of my favorite Chinese Proverbs, which I I give to people a lot in these situations is, in order to discover new oceans, you first need the courage to lose sight of the shore. And I really feel like there's something this really something really big in there about the emotions can hold you back and propel you forward. And you know, ultimately, it's like, if you're in the middle of the sea, and you look around and you can't see anything, then either you can choose to feel really anxious about the shoreline you've left behind, or you can start visioning where you'd like to go, and, you know, work from there. And it's like, I suppose there's different people would have different reactions to that based on how much of their current identity is wrapped up in the job, like how competent, they are like to be all range of different things like, so when you got made redundant, you were part of a team and there was multiple redundancies at the same time. So did you notice any similarities or differences in the way that different people were, you know, essentially approaching the same thing?
Eleanor Tweddell 17:25
Absolutely. And I think that's what made me start writing about this, because I noticed I started noticing things that maybe I had not really noticed before, how we'll deal with things very differently, and how we have very different perspectives on what's going on as well. So some people were really good at just kind of getting on with focus and knew what they wanted. And, you know, made the moves, made the connections, got networking, and moved really quickly into another job. And it's kind of job done. And again, in the book, and in some of the blogs that I've explored, I then, and a few of us went through this feeling of envy. And we were like, and it makes you feel even worse, because you're like, oh, my goodness, they've just gone and nailed it, they've just moved on to another great job. They've now you know, they've now pocketed the cash, they've not had to go into their redundancy package, sailed into this job. What am I doing wrong. And it's just another setback. So you have all of these moments in time in this journey, it's not just one thing that's thrown at you, it's not just losing your job, you suddenly start going through all of these things, but you can then choose whether it's gonna help you or whether it's going to hold you back. So you see people that you've also been made redundant with moving on, and it makes you feel worse, but does it you know, it could also inspire you could you could work on yourself. So you get inspired by it and think, well, if they can do that, well, so can I and they those are the choices that you're making the whole way through this. And I found myself, you know, triggered by all sorts of things, you know, you see somebody on a on a webinar, say and how much money I just earned this month, and hey, I'm brilliant. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And meanwhile, you're scrambling around trying to pay your bill or wondering how you're going to you know, your credit card gets declined in a supermarket, you're you're in that space and they're busily telling you how amazing they are. You can decide whether that's gonna inspire you to do something and be like them or aspire to be in that same space. Or you can feel really not great that day and it can make you feel like you just want to go back to bed and cry.
Graham Allcott 19:46
I do also think there's something about I think lockdown was a similar experience. You know, those people who just get made redundant and then they frantically job hunt very quickly and walk into a job that's quite similar. Maybe it's a sidestep, maybe it's even a promotion. But then life goes on, right. And in a way, I feel like the people who take a bit more time and the people who reassess things, they actually get more of an opportunity to figure out what it is they want in their life. And I kind of feel like lockdown was a similar thing where everyone's so busy all the time that business is very good at distracting you from thinking about who you are, and thinking about your own mortality and your purpose. And like, all those things that are really important, right? So do you think there's actually a benefit to taking a bit more time to really understand where those emotions of you know, envy or fear are coming from?
Eleanor Tweddell 20:45
Yeah, completely. And I think you're right, we we all had that chance, didn't we, in a way? Even I mean, I was working from home for my consultancies base for the first month of lockdown. But you still have that moment to reflect on what am I doing? That Is this right? What am I actually doing? And how many times have you asked yourself that question, what am I doing this? And why is this right? Is this actually what I'm wanting to do? And I think we all have moments like that, even if we're in work, I think we've all sat at the desk thinking, What am I actually doing here? What am I doing? But do we act on it? Probably not. Because as you say, we just get into the next to do list, we get into the next meeting, next PowerPoint slide pack that's needed and just carry on. So I think redundancy is that moment of here's your space, do what you want with it. And sometimes people challenge me a little bit when I talk about having that space to think because they say Well, some people don't have that luxury. You know, I don't feel like thinking about what you want to do next is a luxury, I think anybody can do that. It's just how you do it. So you can get up the next day. And whatever situation you're in. If you've lost your job, you're going to have to choose what you do with that day, and how you're going to find a solution to earning money, making a life making career, whatever you need to fill that space with. And so you can do it through working on yourself, you can do it through thinking about yourself more, and what your strengths are, and rethinking about your hidden talents and all of that amazing stuff. Or you can just plow on. And you can keep going well, as you said, you know, I'm this job title. I've always done that. That's all I am. This is all I can do. That's all I'm going to look for. So there's choices. And I don't think it is a luxury item. I don't think it is about having the money to do it. I think it's about having the time to do it. And if you've lost your job, you've got the time to do it. So yeah, it's none of this is easy, but it's possible.
Graham Allcott 23:00
Yeah, I know a lot of the money stuff. You know, there. I think skint is such a long spectrum. Yeah, right. And it's all to do with the stories that we tell ourselves about money. So, you know, some for some people, it's like zero in your bank is skint. For some people, it's like layers of age after skin, and then you can actually go quite far down and extreme where it's like, I don't mind having a bit of debt, I can spend three months building up the debt that I know, I'll pay off because I'm going to be in a better place. You know, I think there's there are definitely some people who are, you know, living Absolutely. week to week, hand to mouth, obviously. But I do think there's a lot of people who feel like that's where they're at. But there are actually more options. And there's a lot of people who are kind of lucky than they realize if you really start to renegotiate mortgage payments, or ask some someone else for a loan or just deliberately rack up a credit card for a bit like there are there are options if you are really serious about going through that process, I guess.
Eleanor Tweddell 24:07
Oh, completely. And I actually think I read and I cannot remember where this research come from what I read early on in mice researching for the book and things is there's this thing about, money can hold you in place. It's not an enabler. So sometimes if you've had, for example, a big payout of redundancy, you can just be quite happy, you know, mooching away and I'll think about what to do tomorrow and tomorrow never comes whereas those that didn't get a payout or haven't had the time they haven't got that space. They've got to find work next, they've got to bring in money actually start getting more creative, and they start thinking of ways what can I do to actually bring something in and you know, I spoke to someone a couple of weeks ago and and he was saying that he's been doing a bit of gardening Around the local community, because he saw that people, you know, were probably that that need was, you know, there. And he just said, he loves it. And possibly that could be new business don't know, but he just needed a bit of money coming in. Yeah. And so offering to mow someone's lawn, and tidy up, you know, that they couldn't have been happier the people that that were paying him and he was bringing in a bit of money, he needed to think differently. But he said he would have never thought of that. And suddenly, you know, he's now thinking he was chatting to me, because he was now thinking, Well, how do I make this business? I'm not quite sure. So we're exploring that. But he's now thinking, wow, if I could do this, and, you know, trained to be a landscape gardener, wow, this could be incredible. So I think sometimes money actually, you're right, the money mindset, you've got to really challenge because it could actually be holding you in a place of non discovery non-discovery, and you're closing down your options, because you think you've got time you've got tomorrow might come. Whereas if you don't have money, you you've not got much choice, you've got to make things work. You don't have a choice. Absolutely.
Graham Allcott 26:09
I mean, if you can send that guy around to see my garden, that'd be amazing. Exactly.
Eleanor Tweddell 26:12
I was, yeah, he doesn't live anywhere near me, which is incredibly annoying, because I would have to as well.
Graham Allcott 26:19
So the book is called, I love the title, "Why Losing Your Job Could be the Best Thing That Ever Happened to You". I love the title. You've obviously written a lot of blog posts already. And you know, you've been kind of working in this area. So what was the what was the transition to taking that work and turning it into a book?
Eleanor Tweddell 26:40
Well, it was because I found myself at work again. So I got made redundant and started kind of, you know, writing and then I got contract work and grew my comms consultancy, and it was great. But my other last My life is, we're a military family. So we move every two years. So so we got our next place to move. And I completely underestimated how much that would store my business. So we moved. And I just didn't know where to reconnect into this new, you know, local network to just keep going on my comms consultancy. And then it started just making me feel doubt myself again, and going back into that space. And I had to dig out all my notes and like, oh, my goodness, why am I feeling like this again. And so whilst I was looking for contracts, and freelance work, and project work for my, for my consultancy, I started the writing again. And eventually I thought, I'm gonna make this into a book, because this is helping me get through, it must be, you know, maybe it could help others. So, at a time, when I can't say a lot of money was coming in, I paid to go and do some work with a book coach, and I just threw it all in and thought, right, I'm gonna make a book, I'm gonna write this book and be serious and kind of see what happens, I've got nothing again, I got nothing to lose. Apart from obviously, money. But that's the thing that propels you forward, you know, you've got to, I've got to make this work, I have to make this work. So that's how it sort of happened. It was the second time around, that I found myself out of work. And it just helped me at those 3am worry moments, you know, you wake up and you're sweating. And you're thinking, Oh, my goodness. And at that point, by that point, I'd set up a business and the cash flow was going down. And I just couldn't find momentum to get work. You know, it was almost like, the more I tried, the worse it got. And so 3am, I found myself writing about it again. And I'm actually going back through the notes about redundancy and what happens. And that was it. I felt like it was a book and it was flowing, and it made me feel better. And I reminded myself of how much control I've got, how much you know, you can work on your confidence, how much you can control your worry thoughts. You know, it's all your thoughts that you're generating. So it was helping me through that moment in time. And then eventually, the coach that I was working with just said, right, why don't we just go for this? Why don't we just pitch? Why don't we just see how far we can take this. And again, nothing to lose? Why not?
Graham Allcott 29:35
And you were telling me before before you hit record that you actually had multiple offers for the book.
Eleanor Tweddell 29:40
Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing I guess. I had a book agent, she was my coach and then now she's my agent. I didn't actually go through the pain of of knowing all the rejections and knowing all of that stuff. She was one of those moments that you know, people talk about the rejection and "Do you get a lot of rejections?" And but yeah, eventually it was very weird though it's a very weird thing that I described because I was at a very low point at the beginning of that year. I wasn't feeling great about myself at all. But I wrote this really clear vision about this book. And I was like, right, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do really well. And and I wrote a date on this day, I'm going to get a book deal. And then I'm gonna make it into a business. And I sort of wrote this thing about my vision for it. And it just about came true. It was like a week later, after I read the day in this notebook that she came back, Jessica came back and said, Yeah, we've got a deal from Penguin. Nice. So it didn't actually feel that much of a surprise. I was like, Yeah, I need you get me a deal.
Graham Allcott 30:49
Yeah. Love it. What's the most interesting thing you've learned about the world of publishing and books? Just through the, through the project of doing it?
Eleanor Tweddell 31:06
I should learn every single day, don't you? I mean, you're an amazing author. And you've been doing this. We were chatting before about your a pro in there. So I'm still learning and finding my way around. And it definitely opened doors, the irony, but you know, but it does. And it may it sort of reminded me of the time when I worked. I worked for Virgin Atlantic for a while, and having Virgin on your CV or telling people about virgin open doors. So you know, you've got to speak to people who might have said no, in the past, you got to do stuff. And it's similar. Soon as you start saying, I've got a computer. I Oh, yeah. And then you say with Penguin, they go? Oh, yeah. It's so it's there next to a book is? Oh, yeah, that's interesting. And then with the publisher, oh, that's even more interesting. And you do get opportunities. You know, I'm not a different person than I was the day before. I didn't get the book. But suddenly, people are interested in what you've got to say. And, and that bit, I guess, I'm not sure I really got that completely. So I'm really enjoying the opportunities, and I love learning from others, you know, what they're going through and other authors how they're approaching things. So I think the learning is just stay open to all the opportunities that come and start thinking about Book Two, before book one is even out there.
Graham Allcott 32:37
I mean, so you're saying pro before, like, that's a pro for right there that I definitely did not do when I did my first. I was trying to cram everything I knew into book one. Yeah. But the first version was like 120,000 words, and the edited version is like 85, I think and even that's quite big. Like, that's, that's the total profile. Right. There is like, start thinking about Book Two. And what's follow up? Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk about one of the other things that you did, which was when you were made redundant, you started setting up another little side business, and you said it was a rebellion against going to corporate interviews. And I love any kind of rebellion, both within corporates or rebelling against them, and just rebelling against the status quo. So tell me about that.
Eleanor Tweddell 33:31
Yeah, and I think that's my was my first moment of like, what am I doing, I've never really felt like a good corporate citizen. In the days of MySpace, long, long time ago, I set up a MySpace account, it was called the Corporate Robot. And I started writing about, you know, these ridiculous sort of things you find yourself doing as a corporate. And so I think that's always been sort of inside and then this moment of -- I don't know if bored is the word but going to these interviews and getting asked, so why would you like this job? And I am good at answering that. And sometimes, I genuinely mean it. Can't be done being very honest, you know, but I'm really good at answering it. And, and I found myself answering the question, but this time, I did mean, it's this guy. I like the guy who was asking the question, like the job, it was amazing money. It was amazing role. And I felt quite genuine in this circumstance. And I answered it, but deep down inside, what I really wanted to say is but I'm going to be honest here. I just like the title and the money. And so when I was driving home from that, I was like, yeah, this can't be right. Like that. That's not a good thing to deep down inside think. Yeah, that's not that's not right. So I thought, right, what can I do then this you're not enjoying these interview processes. You don't really want these jobs. So what can you do and I thought, you know what I've always wanting to do set up just a little business, a little shop? You know, I've always wanted a little shop I've ever seen sort of business studies GCSE. I wrote about owning a shop. And I thought, right, is this the moment, so I got a market stall, at the time, we were in Bristol, got a little market stall. And just thought, right, I'm going to just sell baby blankets. I had a baby at the time. So that made complete sense to me. Don't ask me my thought process, there wasn't a lot of thought process. I just wanted to do the opposite of sitting in an office with a big job. And I just loved it. I loved this markets door, I loved what I was selling. And it was actually beach towels. In the end, it wasn't blankets, when it when I actually sort of launched.
Graham Allcott 35:54
baby beach towels, or just beach towels,
Eleanor Tweddell 35:56
Just beach towels. Yeah, there's a long story about product development and in my learning how to innovate, but yeah, eventually is just beach house. I loved it. But you know, reality kicks in. And I was like, right, I've got to make a choice here. I've actually got to go all in and make this brand work. And I've got to start pitching to get you know, my product in places. And I was doing a lot of research about that. Following a lot of product coaches, and your people who've done it, and I thought, I'm not sure if I'm ready, and I hesitated. I didn't take that leap. And I felt like oh, no, I don't think I'm them, that they look amazing people who can do this stuff so don't ask me and I hesitated and it retracted a little bit. And I got a comms contract, which was quite safe. And I thought, I'm just gonna retract into this space and going back into my comfort zone and earn some money. So I kept running it on the side, and I still run it on the side. Now it's more like a Christmas thing that I ramp up and sell these great products and stuff. Because I enjoy it. I really love it. And when Christmas fairs and things like that come along, I love it.
Graham Allcott 37:03
so do you think that is another example? You were saying before like, oh, but you're a pro? Is that the same thing? You're looking at these other people like, oh, they're a pro, but I'll just to as an amateur at Christmas kind of thing. Yeah.
Eleanor Tweddell 37:14
And I think that's I mean, you talked about at the beginning of this about who you think you are. And I, I thought I was just a corporate citizen. That was it. And just, you know, that's all I can do so and kind of Am I someone who could run a business? Or no, I don't think I am. Am I someone who could write a book? Oh, no, definitely not. No, I'm not that. You think you think that you're not all those things. And you think these other people have special powers. And they've had special sort of, I don't know, moments and skills and experiences that have helped them to do that. And so you're telling yourself will last Not me, I couldn't do that. And that's what I mean by work, like I just was in that space for so long. I mean, that was maybe a few years ago. And you still have to keep working on that your identity. And even now, sometimes I still think I'm more comfortable in corporate space, because you can just say, a job title, everyone gets what you do. Whereas now you have to describe I'm an offer, or I'm a run a business that helps people who've lost a job. And then that leads to the next question, or what does that mean? What do you do? Well,
Graham Allcott 38:25
yeah, I have about five different versions of that, depending on how interested I am to explain it to you. The one that I would use if I just want to shut the conversation down immediate is I do management consulting. Oh is like, yes, sorts of what I do, but it's not really what I do. And I just know that if I say that, then they'll just go. Okay, move on.
Eleanor Tweddell 38:50
And that ends that conversation. Yeah, like that. That's a good tip. I'm gonna write that down. That's a very good tip.
Graham Allcott 38:56
So my question was going to be if you think back to that moment where you could have taken that leap with the product business, and then you didn't, and you had this. I guess it's a slight impostor syndrome thing, isn't it? Like they're the pros? And I'm not Do you feel like if you transported current day, I don't know back to that moment. Would you make a different decision?
Eleanor Tweddell 39:16
Um, great question. I think, well, I don't think you should go back and think no, not in a regretful state. Because I think it's all great stepping stones. And I had to go through all of this to now help people where I'm at now, because now I help people in exactly that same position, start a business because I've just, you know, went through it myself. So I feel like what I'm doing is because of all of that I couldn't have just helped people if it had all gone well. And would I take the leap? I think I'm gonna take the leap in a couple of years, and I still that's why I haven't shut it down is still there. Because I feel like I am that person. Now. Who just goes for stuff. I'm not bothered now what anybody thinks? I think that was the other thing that goes on in your head or certainly my head. What will people think? What if I get this wrong? What if I fail? How embarrassing like that embarrassment thing again? And then when you ever think about anything, or I'm not sure who all these people are, there's got this judgment, you know, is there really a crowd of people sitting about watching me? Go, oh, she's done that again. And when you realize it's not...
Graham Allcott 40:34
There's a quote that says something like, if you realize how little people cared, you wouldn't care what people think.
Eleanor Tweddell 40:40
Yeah. Is it Brené Brown? She says something like that, as well doesn't share about, you know, where people are in the crowd. Are you doing something? And then is that but but it's real, And that's what when I'm working with people who are wanting to start something new, they say, Oh, yeah, but what if someone posts something that they don't like that I've put? And I'm like, What if they do well done to you, because it's taken me three years, and I still don't get a lot of engagement on my social media. So hey, if that happens, well done, you. And but yeah, we live in this kind of space of thinking that everyone's gonna care. And it holds us back.
Graham Allcott 41:18
So you've gone from So you mentioned Virgin Atlantic before you work for Channel Four and comms, like quite a few other big name, big corporate entities. And then obviously, now you're setting up your own thing. And I just wonder, over the last couple of years, you know, running your own business, having your own autonomy, and also, probably changing your relationship with risk a little bit. Just wondering what that has meant for how you look at success, how you look at what's gonna make you happy, like the goalpost kind of moves for you, since you've sort of made that leap.
Eleanor Tweddell 41:54
It's always quite difficult to think in that way, because I think whatever decision you make at the moment in time you're in is right. And you got to just be happy with that rather than, you know, kind of think, have I made wrong decisions to a degree if that makes sense. So I think Yeah, and I've always lived in a space of risk to a degree. Now I'm from Cumbria, and have a farming background. So I was never in, you know, surrounded by corporate people. So I took a risk at that early stage and went to a university of Luton, which I don't even think exists anymore, but I did to study
Graham Allcott 42:32
Isn't it University of Bedfordshire now?
Eleanor Tweddell 42:33
It maybe is Yeah, I don't know. But you know, I, I took a leap, Ben and took a risk because everyone's like, what are you doing going to Luton? It's the opposite. It's the opposite world . Luton is the opposite to Cumbria and so...
shout out to any Luton listeners, it's always a risk going to Luton for any reason, right?
Hundred percent. Oh, I've got loads of friends who live in Luton. Because I lived I ended up living there for about six or seven years because I ended up Yeah, I went to uni there. But then Whitbread's a base there. So I ended up working for them for 10 years,
Graham Allcott 43:11
I used to do some stuff with with Whitbread as well like getting the train to Luton and walking through the weird Town Centre.
Eleanor Tweddell 43:19
Yeah, so that's, that's kind of like my second home. Luton. It's just odd to say that out loud, but it's true. So to be honest, yeah, risk has always been, well, I haven't seen his risk. I've just been well, I want to do this. So that's what I'm going to do. And then worked really hard to get into corporate. So yeah, Whitbread was my first corporate. I sold beer. In a world of at that point in time, you weren't allowed in men's clubs, if you were female, and like, half of my customer list was men's clubs. And I remember being told, yeah, you can talk to me outside, like one guy actually let me in once and he was like, Oh, I'm breaking the rules here. I think I offered him a few free t shirts and got myself in there. But um, so it's kind of like, is it risk? Or is it just what you thought you feel like you need to do. And that's where I've got to, I just felt like, actually looking back. I've had a great corporate career. And I've got no complaints with that. And I feel like I've been kind of successful as much as I could be. and enjoyed it. Like who could not enjoy working for Virgin Atlantic, RAC, I loved working for the people there, amazing people. And so I've been lucky and enjoyed my career, but it's just that moment in time that you think I want something more and especially when they're being a military family and moving all the time and I've got a five year old daughter, you know, I wanted more my life to sort of fit around all this stuff and get more balance and wasn't interested in eight to six on a these days, zoom calls. And now I've got that and I feel hugely grateful for that. I can flex my work to meet whatever else is going on you know I can pick my daughter up from school I can flex to if you know she needs me or whatever is going on in our family
Graham Allcott 45:14
You mean flex in the time flex yeah Flexi time. Corporate definition right like is flex now it's like showing off, isn't it?
Eleanor Tweddell 45:23
Yeah, that's true. That's very true. Yeah. I do mean in the Coliseum to sit back into corporate language.
Graham Allcott 45:32
I love the idea that you're sat there with your daughter go look at how much money I've got. Even got a pound a week pocket money.
Eleanor Tweddell 45:39
You're accurate. I do do that to her a lot. Look how much Lego I've got you. I own this Lego.
Graham Allcott 45:49
So you mentioned military family life there. So moving every couple of years. So that's moving to sort of different army bases? Is it and like, just sort of moving house to go with, you know, sort of different missions that presumably your partner's on?
Eleanor Tweddell 46:05
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They the they move him every two years? in the army? I think it's different in navy and RAF. But yeah, in the army. It's two years. So yeah, you get a new opportunity, shall we say. A new opportunity is given to you to discover a new community. Yeah, new neighbors new. Yeah, all everything new at the moment, my husband's actually deployed abroad. So we're back up in Cumbria, in hometown for now. Me and my daughter? Well, he is abroad for two years. So yeah, you will have to shift with it and make it work. So yeah, it's another layer, to the decision making process.
Graham Allcott 46:52
And tell me more about that from a sort of dealing with change perspective. And so obviously, now, you're in a long distance relationship for a couple of years. And then, you know, next you might be, you know, moving to a whole different town or city or part of the country that you've never been to before, and all that sort of thing. To me, the thought of that sort of exhausts me, does it get easier? And what are some of your? Do you have some some strategies that you've seen yourself develop that helps you to deal with that sort of constant sense of change?
Eleanor Tweddell 47:43
Yeah, I think I'm definitely learning to let go of things and move into the space and move forward. And you can hold on to a lot of things, not just physical stuff.Although that helps as well, you know, if you've got, you've got less stuff, it's easier to move.
Graham Allcott 47:49
But I'm sure that helps when you say let go of things to me,
Eleanor Tweddell 47:52
but I think it's the mental side. So. And, for example, the last post that we were in was just the most amazing place, and we were in lockdown in it as well. So it's an army base, next to the seaside. We had a beach two minutes behind our house, in an army base, so you're safe. And, you know, that is just... heaven. You know, like we it was just the most amazing place to be and then we had to move. And you can dwell on that quite a bit. You know, you you can spend time thinking every now and again, it kind of creeps into my mind to get off the beach right now. But you have to manage that and just let go and move into Okay, well, what are the opportunities that I'm in right now? What's the point of missing things? and spending time thinking about that? It's in the past? So I really worked on where am I at now? And how do I make it work forward thinking? I don't spend a lot of time missing stuff. People always ask me that. Do you miss this? Do you miss that? No, I don't miss anything. It's just a waste of time. Just get on with it.
Graham Allcott 49:00
Nice. I like that. Regrets are a waste of time, right?
Eleanor Tweddell 49:05
Completely and, or just you know, when people talk about missing things. What's the point of that either if you miss something like go and put it right then go back there then if it's a such a problem, or just you know, you keep moving forward, try and make some things where you are right now, like your present make your present situation work.
Graham Allcott 49:26
And is that the practical application of that? So if you find yourself wistfully dreaming of that beach or that place that you used to be, is it like, do you try and just put your mind onto Okay, what's coming in the future? Or what's present right now rather than kind of dwelling on the past? Exactly.
Eleanor Tweddell 49:43
So that little thought creeps in and I think okay, but where am I at right now? What could I be doing right now? And even sometimes, it's just why don't you just go and have a cup of tea and sit down and get some fresh air that maybe is all you need right now and you're thinking about the beach or this lovely walks that I used to have. Maybe you're thinking that because you just need a little break. Yeah. So just go and have a little break, you know, it's the same thing. So yeah, it's not easy, but it, it's how you sort of get through. But without it being too sort of superficial as well, I think, you know, you do have to appreciate where you're at. W ithout kind of taking things for granted, I guess.
Graham Allcott 50:27
And let's talk in the last few minutes about productivity. Yeah. Which is obviously one of our key themes. So what are your sort of rules of the road? Like, how do you if you if you're really on form, and you really feel like you're having productive days, and it was going well, what are some of the habits that you've got in place? what's what's helping you to achieve that?
Eleanor Tweddell 50:47
Yeah, um, well, I've talked about this quite a bit. And because I feel like people get busy when they get made redundant. So you know, this whole concept of get busy. But one of the things we try and think about which I apply is being intentional, rather than being busy. And you obviously talked about in your book, which I have read, and being more focused on the apple, what is this business trying to get me. So each day, I've got three things, and I'm quite disciplined at this. Now, three things that I have to nail by the end of the day, because I'm terrible for having an idea getting distracted, generating 120, post it notes, when I should be just paying a bill. And so now I get really focused on these are the three things today, when you've done them, you can then have a play with some other stuff. But these are the three things. And then the three things that I feel are going to move me closer to my goal. So it's being a bit more intentional about what I'm doing, not just doing stuff, because it makes me feel busy.
Graham Allcott 52:02
I often say to people, if you start adding priorities to your list of priorities, then you have no priorities.
Eleanor Tweddell 52:11
That's the fun bit though, isn't it? We can't help it.
Graham Allcott 52:14
Do you have any particular apps that you like to use? Or any particular? Just other techniques that really help you?
Eleanor Tweddell 52:24
Oh, no, I'm a good old post it note person, I'm afraid
Graham Allcott 52:27
Post it, pen and paper.
Eleanor Tweddell 52:28
I yeah, I love it. I got an I've got my book, which is about that three things. And I'm pretty good at that. I tried all sorts of stuff. And I found myself getting distracted just by that. So I thought stick to what you like. And I do. I'm quite creative in terms of I like drawing and writing. So my post it notes are my toolkit,
Graham Allcott 52:51
What'd you do if you're working from a cafe for a day, and we have post it notes for home,
Eleanor Tweddell 52:56
I know there can be me
Graham Allcott 52:57
they come with? Honestly, disaster. Yeah.
Eleanor Tweddell 53:00
People who see me working, I used to have a co working space in Portsmouth when we were there, and when I was writing a book, and it just was covered in post it notes like what are you doing, I say, don't worry, part of me and my focus.
Graham Allcott 53:18
Well, if you weren't in a coffee shop, and yeah, sort of taking over and sticking stuff over the walls or whatever.
Eleanor Tweddell 53:23
Yeah, good conversation, though. If someone was doing that, I would definitely go up to them and say, What are you doing this looks great. Can I get involved?
Graham Allcott 53:30
It's true, it might be quite good way to sort of get attention. Yeah, your business or whatever, if you just took over Starbucks posted. Yeah, yeah. So before we finished as well. And so the book goes through these five steps that you go through when you get made redundant. So I thought might be quite nice to just finish with just some practical thoughts for people around what those five stages are. And then also practical things that people can do. So if you are in the midst of redundancy, right now, if you feel like it's on the cards, or you're just coming through it, like, maybe just give people a couple of little sub practical takeaways that can really help with those five steps.
Eleanor Tweddell 54:12
Yeah. So it's a little bit of a story. So I guess it's the first step: Shock. Embrace the shock. Don't dismiss it. Don't feel like you have to put positive pants on. You're allowed to wallow, you're allowed to feel emotions. And then when you've got to that stage of being bored of yourself wallowing, okay, you move to the next step. And you do you get like, right, come on, I gotta do something about this. You get into the next step, which is the feeling of stuck. So you're kind of thinking, yeah, okay, doors closed. I've kind of got over that. Now. Now I'm ready to move on. But now what? So this second step of stuck is about feeling like it's a sign of possibility. So if you're in that space of what next, you can Open up and think, okay, right. So who am I, I can explore my talents, I can think about my strengths. I can think about what I've always wanted to do. And opening up and getting curious about stuff. Asking questions, don't close doors. Don't kind of shut yourself down, open up as much as you can get involved in stuff way out of your comfort zone. So stuck is almost like a period of time of exploration. And it's being brave in that space, like sending someone a message and saying, Hey, you know, just lost my job, actually. But that's because you got any time for chat. Now, chances are, they might ignore you, they might say no, but it doesn't matter. Just be in that space of putting stuff out there without any expectation of what might come back.
Graham Allcott 55:48
I feel like a lot of people would really struggle with permission on both of those. Right? So giving yourself to get permission to be shocked. Yeah. And then giving yourself the permission to be stuck and exploring and, you know, putting out crazy ideas and asking crazy people for LinkedIn, you know, advice that, you know, whatever, you know, like, Yeah, sometimes we bias our brains towards what feels like credible and whatever. But, you know, I think it's really important, isn't it to take the to give yourself permission to be shocked, and then to be stuck and exploring
Eleanor Tweddell 56:22
Completely. And that's those were the sort of the two steps that I felt were missing in all this kind of redundancy support that was out there was just pushing me into this place of solve the problem done. Whereas it didn't, kind of that wasn't useful to me, I needed that exploration space, because that's where I was at. And I think people do resonate with those steps. Once they read the blogs, or that, you know, read the book, even, they're going to connect with Oh, yeah, that's where I'm at right now, I actually thought I was in a solving space, but you're actually in this exploration space. Because it's where the magic happens, you know, the book is about making it the best thing that happens to you, not just a thing that happens to you, if you want to make it the best thing. And you got to choose that you've got to choose to say, right, this, I'm going to own this, I'm going to make it the best thing. You have to accept that those two steps, the shock and the stuck. Really important parts of that. Because if you just dive straight into solve the problem, get a job, then good for you. That's brilliant and, and they feel happy. That's really cool. You know, this book isn't for everybody. But if you want to make it the best thing, you've got to embrace those two steps, definitely. But you're right, it's uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable space, but just live with the uncomfortableness of it. And then the third step I can think helps people with that, because it's slow, slow, go. And I created that when I was writing. And I realized I had my milk back to my million post it notes of ideas and possibilities, and what could I do and who am I meeting and all of this stuff is starting to get very overwhelming when I did get brave, and started thinking about things. And then I thought, Oh, my goodness, I'm just going to shut this all down into a box and go safe again and apply for that safe job again, but slowing down and thinking, Well, why do I want to do it? Why is this important? What are the things that are really resonating with me, and getting clarity on one or two things that might make a huge difference to the future really helped. So that slowing down is about clarity. The next slowing down is about how to make a decision on what you going to do. And then go is right, I'm ready. I'm gonna take that leap. So that step is about just allowing yourself that time to check in and say, right, where am I at right now. And I'm making a decision. And in that book chapter, we talk about the decision. And I say week because it's kind of another door. I run with a coach, another coach now. And so we talk about it as in, you've got a decision to make now. You can stick twist or bust. So that go is you can stick with your expertise, but perhaps upgrade now push yourself to get the better organization, the one that you've always wanted to work for, or get the promotion or get a pay rise. Twist is stick to your core strengths and your skills and your background but deliver it in a different way perhaps go freelance or teach it or you could rethink about what they what they are in a different way.
Graham Allcott 59:38
Like switch sectors into charities.
Eleanor Tweddell 59:41
Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. help small businesses with your skill set. And then bust is busted out throw it all up in the air. Go for that way out of comfort zone and do something you've always wanted to do. And when you think about it in those in those ways, they all come with different approaches, you know, you need to work on yourself in a different way to get what you want. So that brings you into the fourth step of unstuck where you're working on an intentional plan of how am I going to do this? If you've decided I'm going to stick? How are you going to do it? If you decided to twist? What's the help that you need? If you decided to bust? What is the resources, what are the new skills that you might need to do it? So unstuck is very intentional planning and building people around you, that's going to help you through it. Because I think a lot of success is around the people you have around you. And it's not always friends and family. In fact, sometimes they're the people who hold you in a place rather than push you into your new space. So unstuck is, is that kind of awareness of who is going to help me achieve this goal, and how do I plan and be intentional on planning how this is going to work. And then the fifth step is drive, where you feel really clear what you want to do. But thrive also addresses the fear. So the fears that are holding you back, the fact that you're going to fail sometimes, and that's fine, the fact that you're going to get rejections and how to deal with it. So in some parts of the thrive process, it's actually not quite as thriving, and, you know, exciting as it what it might seem.
Graham Allcott 1:01:26
But it's not all positive news.
Eleanor Tweddell 1:01:29
The reality of it, and as soon as you know that, that's the reality of it, you probably going to be okay with that.
Graham Allcott 1:01:34
I mean, I love that as a, you know, anyone that's listening to this and is, you know, just experiencing the shock or the stock right now, I really hope that is as inspiring as, as it certainly feels to me just going through these five steps. So love it. And thank you so much for being on beyond busy. It really feels like you have come through those experiences that you've had, and you're really thriving and it's just a really inspiring story. So So thanks for being on the podcast. And do you want to just connect people into how can they find another door in the book and how can they connect with you? Yeah, so while I'm on LinkedIn, as Eleanor Tweddell, and Another Door UK is on all social media platforms, and so yeah, drop, drop me a note, I'd love to hear from people. So if anybody's got anything that they've thought by listening to this, please drop me a message. And I love hearing what people's thoughts are. So thank you very much for having me on.
Cool. And the book is why losing your job could be the best thing that ever happened to you. So So go and buy that. Thanks for being on beyond busy.
Eleanor Tweddell 1:02:46
Thanks very much Graham.
Graham Allcott 1:02:54
Thanks again to Eleanor for being on the show. Thanks also to Matt Crossey of Penguin Business for helping me to set that one up. And we are putting out a lot of stuff at the moment. I'm really kind of continuing my revamping of social media and stuff this year. So if you're not following me on Instagram, we're putting out some really, I think really nice content on Instagram at the moment. And lots of really good quotes and stuff shout out to Riz and Emily has been leading the team on that from our side. And of course, I have my rabbit for the week mailing lists. So if you want more stuff for me, basically every Sunday night, I drop into your inbox, a positive or productive thought for the week ahead. And so if you want to sign up for that, just go to GrahamAllcott.com. And then you'll see a sort of form on on every page of that site, basically, that will sign you up to my rev up for the week. email list. We started from scratch back in, I think it was March or April, we started doing it. And we're I think just over 700 people at this point. So it's really growing. And what's really nice is I'm getting some really nice replies and sort of contributions from the community as well. So it's kind of developing its own little life as a sort of nice little boutique email. So if you want to get involved in that, it's been a real pleasure for me to do actually because it just means that I'm I just have a deadline to write something, something meaningful and complete every single week. And that's definitely making me a better writer. And actually a friend of mine has been on it for a while so your writings just really improving. I've been dusting the rust off just at the right time because I'm actually about to start writing a book more which next week about that new book. Thanks as always to Mark Steadman, my producer on the show. And thanks to Think Productive our sponsors for the show. So if you're interested in productivity training, coaching workshops for your team, that go to thinkproductive.com and if you're in the UK is just thinkproductive.co.uk. So we'll be back In a week's time with another episode really special when next week where we are talking about kindness with my guest, Christina Kisley, who's a really good friend of mine and just just a wonderful human, so I think you're going to really enjoy next week's episode. So until then, take care and bye for now.