Cycling Without Age with Ole Kassow
Graham Allcott 0:07
This is Beyond Nusy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books, including the global best seller How to be a Productivity Ninja, and I'm the founder of Think Productive. We help people to make space for what matters and get more done. And we partner with some of the world's leading companies who share our mission to transform the world of work. Beyond busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work. My guest today is Ole Kassow. Ole is a social entrepreneur based in Denmark and the founder of Cycling Without Age, a global movement bringing together volunteers to provide cycle rides outdoors to older people who would otherwise be stuck inside. He's also spent a lifetime experimenting with different ways to bring kindness into the world of work.
And in this episode, we talk about his journey creating Cycling Without Age and growing it to become a truly global organisation the importance of intergenerational conversations, his experiments and slowness why kindness is good for business and how his dad inspired his playful spirit. I think you're gonna love this one. This is Ole Kassow. Ole, how's Copenhagen today?
Ole Kassow 1:31
Copenhagen is rainy. Today,
Graham Allcott 1:33
you are the founder of Cycling Without Age. It's an incredible organisation in terms of just its reach around the world and just feels like it's really captured people's imaginations, do you want to just tell us the story festival what is Cycling Without Age?
Ole Kassow 1:47
Yeah, I can do that. And maybe just to explain some of the background. So I come out of a family with a dad who suffered from MS, which is a terrible, terrible disease, and back then they couldn't really diagnose it properly. And so he was very quickly in a wheelchair. And so actually, I know firsthand how lack of mobility can cause social isolation, and loneliness, and depression. So I, you know, for several years, my dad really suffered, but actually, it brought me closer to him as well. And then, you know, when I grew up, of course, I had all that in my baggage. And, and some years ago, I just became acutely aware that I didn't really see many old people in my neighbourhood. And those I did meet, they, you know, would just be sitting on benches outside their homes or the care homes. And there was one particular guy who just caught my attention, and spurred me into action. And that was a, a man that I later, you know, later really changed my life. Because I started I, I offered bike rides to him, he was in a care home. And it just brought me an amazing insight into a different generation. And it gave a gave me a lot of joy to be able to take this, this man back on a bike and get him back into his neighbourhood and, you know, meet his old friends, see the old places and listen to stories and so on. So, I felt it was a really wonderful two way thing where I was able to offer my companionship, and he was able to offer me a lot of stories and a lot of insights and wisdom from from his age. And then, you know, it, it just, you know, continued on from there with, you know, with the city of Copenhagen, getting involved and sponsoring some tri shore bikes, you know, these wonderful three wheel bikes with the double seat in front. And, and then it just grew from there, it grew to all the care homes and activity centres in Copenhagen and beyond. It's it seems to spread to most corners of the world as well,
Graham Allcott 4:00
the first time you had that conversation, that first person that you took out for a bike ride, like, tell us about that conversation? Because obviously then it's like, you're, you're a stranger at that point. Like, are they having to take a big risk on you the idea that you're not going to just kick out these people as they like, say that first making it happen for the first time? Well, I
Ole Kassow 4:21
think because actually, the gentleman I just referred to, he wasn't actually my first passenger because I showed up the local care home with a rented rickshaw, as I call it. And, and I took this lady out for a bike ride and and of course, the fact that I was even allowed to just turn on a care home and and offer my services could have not happened. If it wasn't for the fact that they they trusted me. And so I think there are a lot of things that can happen in society if if there is a an abundance of trust, and I have a feeling that we're going to be talking a lot more about trust. later on as well. But trust what is what made this possible. And so I took, I took this, this this wonderful elderly woman out for a bike ride and, and she took me she was kind of my guide. And she took me all around her neighbourhood of Copenhagen and showed me all the sites that she knew from her childhood and her youth. And so she stopped basically non stop for an hour. And then I, I took her back to the care home, and I dropped her off, helped her inside and I, then I, I met the the care home manager. And she said to me that, that that was commended me and said it was a wonderful thing to do. And I said, Well, you know, actually, I got just as much out of it, because you know, she stopped non non stop for an hour. And then the kennel manager said, Well, she doesn't really talk. So that's really surprising. And I guess that was also the first time that I realised that these bike rides they have, there's something magic about them, because it can get people kick, they make people really chatty. And it's a wonderful way to build relationships through conversation. And so that's what I understood there was something magic about it, whether that was the, you know, the fresh air, the companionship, the sights, the smells, whatever it was, there was something magic about it.
Graham Allcott 6:20
And it just taught you about the guiding principles that you have on your website. So their generosity, slowness, storytelling, relationships, and without age. I'm just going to pick a couple out to talk to you about I want to know more about slowness.
Ole Kassow 6:36
I love talking about slowness, because it is always very surprising to most people that do we have slowness as a guiding principle, but to me, slowness is the I guess, it's really the prerequisite for having meaningful conversation that you can slow down and you can, and you take your time to listen. And you just basically roll along. So it's about the speed of the bike ride, but it's also about how you take your time. And it's, it's also an opportunity to use your senses. Because I think in this day and age, things go so fast. And and particularly elders don't really understand why it has to go so fast. And I think most of us, including myself, we can get stressed out because we're under so much pressure, and we have to perform, and we have to do so many different things, you know, we have kids to take to school and assignments at work and all the rest of it. So I think slowness is, is what is almost like a forgotten life principle, I think that most of us have forgotten about. And so I think by incorporating that, it also just allows people to feel that it's okay, not to hurry up and not to have to, you know, get things over with in a you know, in just like half an hour, but that you really take your time and don't really worry about the time. So I always encourage people to, you know, to book a time slot that is much longer than they really anticipate so that if something happens, then they can just go along and and not feel they're under pressure
Graham Allcott 8:15
with the idea of slowness, like now that it's one of the guiding principles. And because because you're talking about it. Have you noticed any any changes for people just around how they're how they're seeing time and how they're seeing just the idea of slowness?
Ole Kassow 8:27
I think so I, I think just the fact that we talk about it, and I you know, I don't want guiding principles to be like values in some companies where it's just something you put on the wall, and then you know, everybody can see it. And but you don't really know what it means. It has to be meaningful, and there has to be conversation about it. So we have, we have a lot of sessions with volunteers, both online, offline, on social media, and so on where we talk about the guiding principle, we kind of put one of the guiding principles up and we we asked people what it means to them. And I think just having that conversation about slowness gives people an opportunity to really dig deeper and find out what it means to them. And I've heard I've heard many wonderful stories about how being slow has led to chance encounters, you know, that, you know, you go so slow that you can stop and chat to someone who's walking their dog, and then you find out by having that conversation that that is someone that you know, whose parents you knew back in the day. So I've had that particular incidents. And so I think it's, it's a little bit actually we the other day, we were discussing about how we were as an organisation impacted by COVID 19. And of course, because we deal with vulnerable people, we were we were shut down almost instantaneously across the world. And, but because we have our guiding principles, people were able to say well, just because we can't offer bike rides, we can still live our guiding principles and offer conversation and offer, you know, lend an ear to someone who wants to talk. And so really just have the time to sit down and listen to someone. So I know that there are 1000s of our volunteers, who grabbed the phone and had phone conversations with with some of our passengers, and then didn't actually take them for a bike ride for over a year because of COVID-19. And I think if we had just been about offering bike rides, the whole thing might have just stopped and never restarted. But because we had the guiding principles, that's what people connect to. And I think that's the, that's the very fabric of what we're all about.
Graham Allcott 10:44
Is that something that you were particularly keen to promote? I mean, obviously, with the bike race, but wanting to maybe just change how society views the idea of intergenerational dialogue,
Ole Kassow 10:57
I think intergenerational dialogue and relationships is crucial, because I think it's, it's the only way that will allow us to understand what other people are like. And I think that a good breeding ground for for mistrust in society is that you don't interact with people who are different from yourself, in many different ways. And certainly, generational gaps is probably one of the biggest gaps. And it's not really talked about, just like ageism, or age discrimination is not really talked about and is still sort of generally accepted in our society, which I think is, is terrible. There's so many things that we've we've agreed now that we cannot discriminate on the basis of but but still age is is, is still so widespread in our society. But the benefit of doing of mixing different generations is profound, really, because when, when, when we, when we do see the world from someone else's perspective, and particularly someone who has had a long life experience, we can harvest the most amazing pieces of wisdom, these little nuggets of wonderful ideas and insights from from an era where we talked about before, things weren't as fast, people had more time to think about things to contemplate, to come to conclusions, and so on. Rather than like, in this day and age, things have to go so fast. And, and so I think it and what I really also believe is that, with these conversations, we are able to build these wonderful relationships, because, you know, you don't just build relationships unless you take the time you invest time in engaging in dialogue with someone else. And of course, you know, you don't make a friendship with just about anyone that you meet. But I've certainly I would say that over the course of the last eight or nine years, I have made probably a dozen of really close friends that I would have never met because they are anywhere between 30 and 50 years older than myself.
Graham Allcott 13:18
If you think about those, those relationships, is there like one thing or a couple of things that you really treasure that you've learnt from these people?
Ole Kassow 13:27
Yeah, I mean, there are, of course, are many things. One of the things I really think is is it's a true little life hack is so my friend Tokyo, he is the guy who sadly passed away a few years ago, but he was a right nearly 101 He always you know, he celebrated every single day and has celebrated every single day. I think he he learned that from his mother, he was just a very cheerful bloke. And he said that there's no point in holding a grudge or, or, or being angry. I think that maybe it's the right translation from Danish. And then he used the word that I completely forgot about I knew the word existed, but I don't think many young Danes really fully understand the words now, but it's spelled P YT. And it's, it's pronounced and it means to let go or to say nevermind. And to just accept that, okay, this happened, I can't do anything about it. And then just basically move on. And I think we have we you know, certainly I I still do so but you know, I'm trying to also listen to talk to you, but not to get hung up on on little things of over which we have no control. And I think there are so many of us and you know we get engaged In a conversation on social media, or we meet someone, and we have something happens that we can't really do anything about, and we just keep pressuring ourselves, and, and it affects our mood and affects our health, but just that little tiny word, which just means, you know, just let go, just move on. Because you know, it's not going to increase your quality of life, that you're going to spend the next couple of days worrying about this, or, you know, looking at it from different angles, cause we have to learn from things. But sometimes there are things that you just need to let go off. And I think that was a, that's probably the, it's, it's a tiny thing, but it's still so profound. And I really cherish that insight,
Graham Allcott 15:47
there's something really poetic about how short that word is, compared to all of the emotional weight that often goes on behind the idea of giving these, you know, giving something up or, or sort of coming to that realisation.
Ole Kassow 16:01
And actually, because it came from a person with so much life experience, it feels like it's it has, it carries so much weight, that if he says it's okay to do it, it means that I am allowed to do it. And then when I say good, then it does actually go away. Right?
Graham Allcott 16:19
I want to ask you about kindness. And I read somewhere that, that you'd written about your parents having a very interesting approach to kindness and kind of experimenting with random acts of kindness at home. So let's start with that. What does kindness mean to you?
Ole Kassow 16:42
I think kindness has to come from something that is selfless and altruistic. So kindness can never be something that is calculated that you're trying to get something in return. And of course, so So I think we all do things from time to time that we do we do it because we expect something in return. But I think real kindness has to come from within. And, and I think it actually it's, it's something we can train. And so I of course, because my dad was, was into, you know, doing random acts of kindness, big time, I got to, I got to experiment and train that muscle when I was a kid. So he was in a wheelchair, we would go for walks where I would push his wheelchair. And then we would come up with all kinds of different things where we could make people smile. And so it was very much centred around how we could make people smile by either doing slightly foolish things that would make everyone smile or laugh, or we could actually sometimes help people as well, with just tiny little things. And what I also learnt from that whole experience was that it doesn't have to be like massive undertaking. So can you give us some examples? Just those timing, really intrigued by that. I mean, by the time Well, there was one time so so mentioned, so my dad is in a wheelchair, he's paralysed from his chest down. So you can't really do anything. So he's completely relying on me. And around that time, I must have been maybe around 11 or 12 at that time. And, and then we go for a walk along the riverfront in our town. And, and it's a kind of a little nature area, so there aren't that many people. So he says, you know, Ollie, can you just park me here? And just, you know, go and hide in the bushes. And then I knew something was going on. Right. So and then I said, Yeah, sure. So I hide in the bushes. And then, like, a few seconds later, this couple walks past. And he says, Excuse me, I'm just wondering, you know, my friends. My friend parked me here, and was wondering if it's okay to cross the river right here. Is it too deep for a wheelchair? And so these people were first, you know, complete disbelief that this man in a wheelchair was was contemplating crossing the river in a wheelchair. And they were like, no, no, no, no, you shouldn't do that. And then, you know, he carried it on for a couple of minutes. And then in the end, he just burst laughing, and then they were bewildered. And then they laughed as well. And I came out and I laughed, and then we could just see them walk off, and then they were laughing over. This has happened to them. So it was just it was a crazy thing. And we laugh. And of course, you know, many, many years later, we're still talking about this episode. And wonder if that couple was they're still talking about as well. But, but, so there are all these wonderful little things and I can't carry that with me all my life. When I was a teenager. I would also do it with my friends. We would sometimes do slightly Be more elaborate things. But it could all always the intention has been to, to just create a smile without too much of an effort, but that we're not expecting anything in return. So when you do something like that, you make someone smile, but but it's not like someone says, Well, now you made me smile, and I have to do something in return, it just comes from the fact that you understand that you have, you have brought a smile to someone's face. And that is a wonderful feeling. And of course, as all research shows, as well, when you, when you when you produce a smile like that, then that spreads, because the chances are those people who've been affected, they will be just a little kinder to the next person, and maybe they'll do something, you know, nice to someone else, if
Graham Allcott 20:45
the favourite little thing that you can you can do in a public place that, you know, will always bring a smile.
Ole Kassow 20:50
Well, you know, I saw my girlfriend and I, we, we like to do things that can, you know, just make people turn around and look at us. And one years, for instance, one that we did, I think was last year we were on a train station is she will stand and, and I will walk towards her. And then I will pretend that I'm actually saying I love you to someone else. But I'm actually saying it to her behind that person. And then to see that person, I think I am telling that person I'm in love with them. And then I walk towards them and they panic for a second. And then I just embrace my girlfriend, and then we're there and just enjoying the moment. We do silly walk sometimes as well. And you know, it, it's not gonna, I don't want it to sound like I'm doing this all the time. But it's, it's amazing. You know what one of the things I've always cherished is the fact that my dad gave me this ability to bring this little tool with me, wherever I am. So you know, it's it doesn't take up any space, it's purely in your head. And you can do all these wonderful things, you can just imagine how you can make someone smile, you can come up with like a million things. And I encourage you to just try it out.
Graham Allcott 22:15
Okay, so I'm going to interrupt the podcast, which you know, I don't do very often. And that must mean I've got something very important to share with you. So what I want to share is I've got these two really big events coming up, and I would love you to join me
Do you have a version of that? Or do you have a little bit of that kind of anarchic spirit in the way that you manage people and lead a team and sort of interact at work? So if you take that spirit from the train station, like, does that translate through to how you work with people?
Ole Kassow 23:00
I think so I so I like to, to to bring play into into the workspace as well, I think, I think it's important that the work doesn't feel like like a soul drenching place where you just have to sit and work like a treadmill. But that it feels like it's a place that you can, you can truly be yourself. And that you can, you can fail, you can, you can laugh, you can step out of your character. So like, for instance, a lot of what we do is involved around onboarding, new volunteers, onboarding new affiliates, to set up chapters. And so we spend a lot of time telling them about, for instance, just very, very simply, you know, the bike that we're using, you need a little bit of training, you need to understand how you know, the brakes operate, how to do a safe turn, all the rest of it, and it takes anywhere between 15 minutes and several hours depending on how much experience but that could be done in a really dull way. But it can also be done in a way where you're actually you're making people smile and you're making people curious and so on. So, so it's it's about telling people fibs sometimes as well that we're telling them something that isn't really true sometimes and then waiting for them to figure it out. I remember one time there was one volunteer saying to me but but now you told me something that isn't true. And how am I supposed to know what is right? And I said well actually now you you're really going to remember this now because now we've you know we've we've had a conversation about this so you really, truly going to know exactly what I'm what I'm saying here you're probably going to internalise it much better than if I just said it in a dull voice. So so we do sort of fool around a bit when we when we train People, of course, making sure that they get to learn all the ins and outs and how things were
Graham Allcott 25:06
released don't is too foolish with how the brakes work.
Ole Kassow 25:11
But But there has to be an element of playfulness. I think that is crucial also for people just the way people perceive things, and oh, sorry, how people take things in, and how they, they learn things and truly take it on board. I think playfulness is really important for that. Because it also increases people's motivation to to learn things. I mean, we all know it from our teachers in school, right? was usually the ones that were a little bit playful that that we loved the most. And they were the ones that we learned most from as well.
Graham Allcott 25:46
Let's think about the this idea of random acts of kindness and experimenting with kindness. So you're telling me before that you've done various different experiments around kindness and thinking about how you lead with kindness? So yeah, let's just start, like really openly with that. What's your relationship with kindness, as a leader,
Ole Kassow 26:10
maybe I can just explain one of the one of the little experiments that we did a couple of years ago that I thought also gave me some insights that was, came as a complete surprise to me, but but we wanted to see some because sometimes, you know, telling people that they can, they can lead with kindness, and they can use kindness in their work very often, it's difficult to tell them exactly what to do. I mean, I don't want them to just do what I do, I want them to find their own way, or their own angle, or whatever suits them. And so that's where the autonomy comes in, you know, you need to give them hand over the keys and say, This is what you can do, and I trust you to do it in the way that you feel is the right way. And, and so I decided that this was going to, I was going to do a little experiment in an area that I thought was so different from from the businesses that I was in. So the friend of mine who owns a very small chain of, of artists and bakeries, and a lot of the people working there, they're a young students, and very often young students aren't really the I guess the the most engaged are loyal employees, you know, they really there to just make a salary for, for maybe being a student and, and paying for the rent. So it's not a career choice for them. But I wanted to find out, is there a way that we can incorporate kindness there as well. So we sort of just sat there and and kicked a few ideas back and forth? And then came to the conclusion that what, why don't we just allow people to give away free goods? Exactly the way they wanted to do, and not telling them how we want them to do it, but they can do it themselves. And and not really putting any limit on it either. And to see basically, can we trust them to write decisions and not ruin the business? So we didn't experiment with
Graham Allcott 28:15
putting no limits on so they could theoretically give away everything that they're about to sell? Yeah, okay. Well,
Ole Kassow 28:21
they could. And so, so we, we call in a group of employees. So there were there were several small bakery shops. So we want to see if there was a different way. So, so one of them, we call in all the all the employees, I think there were like 12, in total. And we talked about this and said, you know, from tomorrow, we want you to always give away something, but it's up to you what you want to give away, and how much you want to give away. And, and of course, just bear in mind that we still have to stay in business at the end of the week. And so what what we found was that, you know, they, they worked themselves out different strategies, some just wanted to get things over with earlier on, and just you know, almost like the first few customers, they would get some free stuff. Others they kind of kind of kept it and some were very particular about giving it to people that they felt either needed it because they looked like maybe they couldn't afford to buy to buy bread and others if they felt that they had been particularly kind. So you know someone comes in and is cheerful and lighting up the atmosphere, then they would give it to them and and then we carried it on for a month and we kind of observed how much was given away and actually the average amount it was given away by each employee was something the equivalent of 10 pounds per day, which is nothing.
Graham Allcott 29:57
And how do you measure that because obviously is not going through the tail Did you have a tale setting for?
Ole Kassow 30:02
Yes, yes. So we could, we could pull out a report afterwards and, and then we sat down with them at the end and said, so what have we learned? You know, what do you think about this? And, and there were there were a couple who said, All that was interesting, but nothing more than that. But but the vast majority said that they felt it was so interesting, something that it was that it was very hard, because it really made them think, who should have this bread. And, you know, should I develop some criteria, but above all, it, it made them far more interesting in their job. And so they become far more engaged, they suddenly that it wasn't just about handing over bread and taking in money and, and making, you know, a monthly salary. This was far more about understanding people and being interested in other people. And so we actually found that, that suddenly, the, those young people work in the bakery, they suddenly knew much more about their customers, they would engage far more in conversation, and they would act we measured also their happiness at work. So, so we took some, some, some standard tests that and asked them to rate their happiness at work, you know, how do they, how did they feel about going to work every single day, and how that changed over the course of the month. And there was a very significant increase in the way they felt about their job. So the emotion that they attached to being at work for 468 hours, had gone up very, very significantly, just by basically showing them the trust and say, You Can you, you do this, but you do it your way. And then let us know what you feel about it.
Graham Allcott 31:54
Like there's so many things happening there. Right? So when you so there's lots of research that says that if you perform an acts of kindness, then your brain is releasing dopamine, which is the reward chemical, and oxytocin, which is like the love hormone, and it's, and it's bringing about more trust and an empathy. And it lowers cortisol, which is like the stress hormone, right. So like, if you think about what's happening in in someone's brain, as they, as they give away that bread, like, of course, because it's happening at work, they're gonna feel more connected to their work more connected to their colleagues, more connected to the job, you know, it's just gonna have so many positive ramifications, and what a simple thing and on top of that, you're also, it's a really nice way, a really simple way to just demonstrate trust in them as well, you're giving them autonomy, giving them the chance to figure out the way to do it.
Ole Kassow 32:56
I just I love that experiment, because I think it was it was so simple. And but it also, it actually, very importantly, that you said it's about trust. And it's also the, in order for this to work. It's also the willingness of, of leaders and managers to release control, to let go of control. Because I think, I don't know what percentage it is. But it's a very high percentage of leaders, and managers in companies around the world who are quite desperate control freaks, and who want to micromanage almost every single activity that goes on in the company. And when you look at it, I autonomy, and the ability to make decisions that impact your own work is one of the most important factors of happiness at work and job satisfaction. So if you feel that you can't make any decisions, and that's going to impact your your, your quality of life very, very significantly. So, so that is a huge barrier. It is to overcome this. This desire to control every single action in a company and just basically let go. And this was a course this was a big deal with this one, because we basically said to people, you can, you know, there is no care, give away the whole bread shop if you want to, but nobody did, because when you show people trust, they reciprocate. So, you know, trust breeds trust. And it may sound like a, you know, a cliche, but it's, it is so true. And I think I have seen it happening over and over again. People will not abuse that kind of trust.
Graham Allcott 34:48
Is there anything else? And maybe there's, you know, maybe you can bring this back to some of your conversations with the friends that you've made in different generations as well. But is there anything else if someone's listening to this and they feel like they are a bit of a concern? A freak or they get very stressed by the idea of relinquishing, relinquishing control, is there anything you can say to them that you think might help?
Ole Kassow 35:10
Well, I can say this, that, I wouldn't say that I've ever been a control freak, but I've had periods of time where I've had the inclination to be more controlling than others. And, and, you know, I have three daughters. So there are times as well, that as a parent, you, you experiment with being a little bit more controlling, then at other times, but I would say, in general, I'm, I'm very relaxed about control with my upbringing, but I've had times, and what I find is that, my, my stress levels, so my cortisol levels in my body go up very, very significantly, when I am the controlling daddy. Whereas, you know, when I'm the daddy, who is not just, you know, I don't just let go and say, I don't care, you can do whatever you want. But essentially, it's your decision, I'm going to be there all the time for you, I can give you good advice always be there, and I am very interested in what you're doing. That's not do too dissimilar to what happens in a company. And, and with a leader. And so what I would say to those managers, or leaders who are, maybe, of course, they really realise as well, that they might be control freaks. But if you feel as a manager, that, that you need to let go a little bit, then just think about the know how you have it, like a tight knot in your chest, if you're controlling, and how wonderful it would feel if you could release that by simply just letting go. And, and, and showing trust to other people. So, so just experiment a little bit, I'm very fond of except experiments at all levels. So experiment, and then feel in your own body, what it feels like when you release control. And I, you know, certainly for my for my own perspective, I can feel it almost instantaneously in my entire body. When I do that, I it's just a wonderful feeling. And of course, you go from having lots of cortisol all around your body, to like you said, dopamine, and oxytocin, that flows instead, because now you're doing something like the complete opposite. So you know, you're obviously having a complete different cocktail of chemicals in your body than you did. When you were the controlling person, or
Graham Allcott 37:40
what people can do to just encourage the people around them to show more kindness and to be more playful?
Ole Kassow 37:47
It's a very good question. And I I'm always a little bit mindful of coming in on the high horse and telling people you must do this. I'm, I'm far more into just inspiring people. And so just going back to all the, all the releases of chemicals in our, in our bodies when we when we do these kinds of things. So what actually happens is that when people witness someone doing a random act of kindness, even people who are of course on the receiving end will also feel an emotional elevation. But people who are witnessing that random act of kindness, even if they're not involved at all, will also experience a very, very significant increase in their levels of of happiness,
Graham Allcott 38:45
they saw that the Mother Teresa fights, you know that you know about that one? I heard that, yeah, there was this neuroscience experiment where they showed people like a, like, 45 minute video, 50 minute video of Mother Teresa doing all these different acts. And then they measured people's stress levels and all of those hormones that we talked about the levels of that in, in their bodies. And yeah, that was what they found. It's just like witnessing this kindness, which is happening on a screen between two people that you don't know, still has that affective emotional elevation. Yeah.
Ole Kassow 39:20
Yeah, absolutely. So I would, I would actually say Graham, but my advice would be, not to, not to tell people that this is what you need to do. But to simply just engage, not even just saying, you know, look at what these people are doing, but actually experimenting yourself. So as a both as a colleague, as a friend, as a as a leader or a manager. I think the very best way to promote kindness in all aspects of life is simply just to to live it yourself. And it needn't be massive. Things like we talked about, initially, it can be just tiny little things. Because even tiny little things can have an amazing impact because it will spread. And so I did just like sometimes I talk to people, and they say, Well, you know, I could never start like a global movement. But you don't have to, because I didn't set out to start a global movement, it just, you know, in this particular instance, happened to lead to that. But it all started with a tiny little random act of kindness that was selfless and altruistic. So expecting nothing in return. And if that first bike ride had just been that very first bike ride, and nothing else, it would have still made a difference to at least one other person. And those people who witnessed it, yeah, and myself. So I think it's just a matter of, of telling ourselves that every single little tiny act of kindness is very, very important.
Graham Allcott 41:01
What I'd love to hear, because there might be people listening to this, who think, Yeah, that's great. Maybe I can pay the parking metre forward for someone, because that's always the cliched thing. Do you have a few other little tools in your toolbox like that? Maybe particularly in terms of work, that bring a smile or spread a bit of kindness, like what are the what the little tiny ones that you do regularly, that you really enjoy?
Ole Kassow 41:26
I mean, it's, I think, in our office, we very often also, just do little, again, sometimes it's, it's kind of related to the Secret Santa you have kind of we do that every single day of the year. So we kind of encourage people to be a little, a little crazy with each other, and do little things. That good can, it's it's never even borderline bullying at all, but it's it's teasing a little bit. So, you know, if, if it could be anything about like, just putting a drop of something in someone's water, that it tastes slightly differently, and just seeing the person having a strange reaction. And then of course, it's all it's all in good spirit, and we all end up group hugging, hugging, and so on. But it's just about bringing out the emotions and, and, and, and letting people know that we care. And, and to not be too you know, self righteous about things, or even to, like, take things too seriously that this is no, we have to do this. It has to be fun. It has to be playful. And and it can involve the element of surprise. Yeah, I think actually, very often it does involve the element of surprise. But it has to be it has to be tiny little things I don't want people to feel they have to go out and do a big, you know, spiel and and set things up. Of course, I don't mind about that either. But it's those tiny little things that only take like 10 seconds to, to think out. Or even some sometimes it's just the the spontaneous things that you just think of, and then you act on it immediately. And those kinds of things spread as well. And if they are all tiny, then everybody can can engage, and everybody can do it. But
Graham Allcott 43:30
yeah, I just think all those, all those things that don't necessarily cost a lot can end up being, you know, actually just the most valuable things as well.
Ole Kassow 43:40
Exactly. And on that point. So we live in a world both in the private sector and the public sector have key performance indicators, everybody has a set of KPIs that they have to fulfil. And if they don't, then it has consequences. And we, you know, companies put an amazing, huge amount of, of effort into producing all of that, and this is what you should be focusing on. But I've never seen anyone talk about, like, random acts of kindness, or it'll weird things or crazy things that you can do. But in terms of employee engagement, they are far more important. And then then, than any key performance indicator. And so, I think, you know, most companies, actually, they're spending their efforts in the wrong place. Because those other little things that we can do, they will increase our, you know, engagement and our desire to go to work and our happiness at work tremendously. And then you'll actually end up having a company that is is performing much better because people are happier, people are staying longer and and not quitting. So I think and I've had so many conversations with CEOs from so many different companies who liked the idea. But when it comes to actually taking the plunge, and trying to put their efforts elsewhere, very often it is it is really fear provoking for so many leaders to get away from what they know. And they can just sit in a measure, to going into something that, you know, honestly, is about allowing people to show they care. And they know it's about love. It's about kindness, it's all those different things of the things that tie people together. And that creates this amazing sort of cushion of trust in, in a company in our world, it
Graham Allcott 45:46
sounds like, you've got all of these things that don't really cost very much in terms of time or resources, they make a huge difference. And yet, there's a fear that's holding people back from actually putting these things in motion. So how do we overcome that fear?
Ole Kassow 46:07
Well, I think, like we've, we've, we've talked about, I think, you know, maybe we should, we should encourage leaders and managers, because they're the ones we're stopping this from happening, we need to encourage them to do these little random acts of kindness. And to be a little crazy to dare be a little crazy and a little weird. on a on a daily basis, and allow others to be so as well, because that's, that's how it's gonna grow. Isn't there's no other way.
Graham Allcott 46:37
I want to just ask you one other thing before we finished, which is, so you mentioned your dad and his MS. And I think you also have another member of your family who has a disability as well. And I just wanted to ask you just generally about how you think we deal with disability when it comes to work. And obviously, you've been around that ever disabled son, so I'm also interested in your perspective on it. But yeah, what do you what do you when I say to disability at work and dealing with disability at work? What do you think the current climate for that looks like? And what do we need to do better?
Ole Kassow 47:17
Well, I think we've we've certainly come a long way. I know my own dad already had the ability to do work where he was, he was manning phones and using his mouth. So already back then there were, you know, there were opportunities. And I think we've we've come a long way in for this to happen. And certainly I think people with disabilities have come further than that elders. So I still think discrimination based on on age is far more widespread now than discrimination based on disability. Wow, that's why I, I will say is that we should celebrate diversity in disability more than we do today. Because we do have a tendency to see people we see people and their disability, we don't see very often the person behind the disability. And, and so I think if we can get to the point where we actually celebrate that as, as a, almost like a, like a superpower. So you're very often if you look at a superhero, it's very often because they've lost another ability that they suddenly have developed a superpower, right? So if we can, if we can celebrate all the diversity in disability, by pinpointing those areas where they can make an extra contribution, and celebrating that, I think that would be wonderful. If we could make that note, like weave that into our, into our culture. And I think we can all every single day, we can all do that we can all spend far more time with people who are different from ourselves, because that will also increase our level of empathy. And it all it these are all muscles that we can train. And then we can just again, go back to celebrating diversity, that'd be my best recommendation.
Graham Allcott 49:21
It feels like there's two things in there like one is, like I'm really fascinated by neuro diversity in particular. And, you know, when you read the list of people who were either on the autistic spectrum or, you know, had had other conditions, which just meant their brain was just wired a bit differently. It's like everyone from you know, Elon Musk in the present day back through to Einstein and Beethoven and, and beyond, right and it's like so many of those people, even up to the present day, it seems like they managed to achieve incredible things despite the system So if you could change the system, so that actually you could really maximise those people's talents rather than them have to fight against the system the whole time to let their talents come through. It's incredible what humankind could achieve in that sort of environment. But then the other thing on the other side of that is just that whole celebration of diversity that you talked about. We don't need to see everything as being about high achievement, right. So actually, just celebrating diversity is also a really good way to, to slow down and to kind of see the sort of broader range of human experience beyond just mere productivity to rights, there's kind of both both ends of that spectrum.
Ole Kassow 50:45
Yes. And then be curious about what it's like. I mean, I visited one of our suppliers a couple of years ago of these trade shows, and there were a whole group of, of blind people assembling the wheels with the spokes. And so I sat down and have a conversation, and I tried to help them out as well spend an hour loading the trade of putting in spokes and wheels, and I realised how bloody hard it was, and how really good they were, and what a fantastic time they had sitting there. And so I think sometimes it's just about finding out a way to, to really get under the skin of someone who has a completely different perspective. And, but, but really kind of immerse yourself into it. And I think we can all do that. And certainly, when I take elders for bike rides, then, you know, I sometimes feel that, you know, we're time travellers, and we go back in time, and I get to really understand why elders very often will say certain things that that may come as a surprise to, to, to the untrained eye. But if you're in that, if you immerse yourself into that conversation, and you really get to understand and listen to them, and to listen to their perspective, then you grow as a human being as well, you get this broad perspective of insights. And you know, and it that that kind of inclusion, I think, is probably the most important thing that we can all do on a daily basis. And that
Graham Allcott 52:33
broad perspective of insights, I mean, I feel like that's what I've been given over the last hour. So just really want to say thank you for having this conversation with me. I feel like I've learned so much, and I could just talk to you all day. And before we finish, tell everyone where they can connect with you and find out more about Cycling Without Age and anything else that you want to share. Well, first
Ole Kassow 52:56
of all, great, I think this is a wonderful conversation. I love these, this kind of thought provoking conversation. So it I really enjoyed it, people can get in touch with with us on cycling without age.org. We also have a UK charity called secular age. And you can go to.org.uk and we're looking for people who are interested in getting involved in all different levels. It could be about volunteer as a pilot to ride the train shows or to organise rides. But also if there isn't a chapter in your vicinity, then you can also become an affiliate and you can start your own chapter. And you can find information about that on on the website as well. So we just you know, we welcome everyone.
Graham Allcott 53:44
Fantastic and it's a great organisation. So if you're sat there with a little bit of fear and trepidation, but a bit of inspiration, I would encourage you to get over the fear and dare to be playful Ole, thank you so much for being on Beyond Busy. Thanks for this video is sponsored by Think Productive home of the Productivity Ninja. We help people in organisations to increase their impact and make space for what matters through a range of workshops, programmes and coaching. Head to think productive.com To find out more. Are you interested in booking me as a speaker for your event? You want to sign up for my Revit for the week email, you want to buy some of my books or you just want to find out what I'm doing right now. It's all at Graham allcott.com/links. And if you like this video, please like subscribe and share so we can make more. Thanks for watching.