Social Legacy with Emily Chang

Graham Allcott 0:07

This is Beyond Busy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books, including the global best seller How to be a Productivity Ninja, and I'm the founder of Think Productive. We help people to make space for what matters and get more done. And we partner with some of the world's leading companies who share our mission to transform the world of work. Beyond Busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness, and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work.

My guest today is Emily Chang. Emily is the CEO of the McCann group, a 400 plus marketing agency based in Shanghai, China. And she has also held senior roles at Apple and Starbucks, and she's the author of the spare room. In this episode, we talk about her making the move to work in China, and she tells us the story of opening up her spare room to strangers, and why social legacy and living an intentional life really matter. She also shares some stories about the kind leaders who inspired her along the way and what makes her tick. And honestly, I could listen to her all day. It was such a treat to do this one. This is Emily Chang. Emily Chang, welcome to be on busy.

Emily Chang 1:27

Thank you so much for having me.

Graham Allcott 1:28

Firstly, I want to talk to you about so you're CEO of the Macan group, based in China for 100 plus people. And it feels like you've had, you've had about eight careers already, like just just you're a bit of a powerhouse, I've you with the various companies that you've worked for. So you spent a long time working for Procter and Gamble. You worked for Apple, you work for Starbucks, so I just love to dig into that a little bit. So perhaps what I'll just hand it over to you and just say what have been your highlights working with some of those amazing companies?

Emily Chang 1:59

Well, my background is I was I was pre med and I wanted to be a paediatric oncologist. So I think when people ask me for advice on my career and how I've planted, I would have to say, I'm not the right person to answer that. I've really sort of there's this wonderful quote, I heard maybe 20 years ago downs to life's rhythms instead of making life march to yours. So I realised very quickly on with a couple of volunteer experiences, I don't have any emotional distance, I get super involved in everything I do. And I approach everything with great passion and therefore working with sick or terminal kids is not going to be a very good fit, though. My heart is very much there. So having been enrolled in an MD MBA programme, I had no idea what I wanted to do my whole life. I wanted to be a paediatric oncologist. So I studied my MBA in corporate finance, and then ended up at Procter and Gamble and was there for 11 years. Yeah, highlight at Ulta. And gamble, I would say every two years, I had a highlight the thing about working at a big company, and I know now, you know, people are much more discriminating about where they want to start. They like small companies, they like the freedom and flexibility. And I think those are all things that we deserve to look for. I will also say there's a huge benefit to working for a big company, because you can learn so many things, and garner so many experiences and stay at the same organisation. So I had the privilege of working everything from front end innovation upstream design, to working with retailers, based in Arkansas, with Walmart, to working in Guangzhou, internationally, that was my first time coming out to China across all kinds of different business units. And for that I'm so grateful, met lifelong friends, I learned so much

Graham Allcott 3:38

just wanted to ask, I realised as I was preparing for this as like, I don't really know very much about what it's like to work in China, I've never been to China. And it's such a huge significant, obviously, just a significant part of the global economy. And I think just as time goes on, we're gonna have more exposure to, you know, sort of working with, you know, China working with Europe and with the US a lot more. So I just love to know more about that, like, what's the, what would you describe as the main cultural differences in terms of the way people work, say, in the US, versus working in China?

Emily Chang 4:13

One big difference, I would say, Chinese are playing the long game. What I mean by that is, people are willing to sacrifice today, tomorrow, my vacation to establish myself in this job, I might forego current comforts, to build a longer term career and do the right thing for my family in 10 years from now, whereas maybe maybe it's a matter of where we are sort of developmentally as well, right. So economically, but I feel perhaps in the US, we are a little bit more prioritising the shorter term, which is where I am today. I'm not gonna check emails over the weekend, or I'm not willing to sacrifice my family holiday on behalf of this work commitment. I feel it's a little bit not, not in the same place. And you know, in China, we talk a lot right now about JoJo Ville, which is 996, there's a lot of dialogue, you've probably read some articles as well, which is working from 9am to 9pm, six days a week. So there's very much. I wouldn't say it's gruelling, though, obviously, looking at it from different lenses, maybe it is defined that way, I would say it's just that commitment that drive to like, I want to go make a difference, I want to go do something really meaningful. And that's gonna set me and my family up for the longer term.

Graham Allcott 5:28

And I was talking to someone the other day about that difference between being really driven and working long hours and stuff. And being a bit more relaxed and kind of comfortable in your own skin and and really prioritising family life. But the distinction I was making wasn't across cultures, it was across ages. And I was I was kind of saying to somebody that that was me in my 20s. And then now I'm in my early 40s, I feel like I'm just in a slightly different place in terms of being a bit more comfortable with the idea of work life balance, and not driving myself so hard. Is it also a cultural distinction? Or is it the fact that you were younger when you're in the US, and then you're slightly older now that you're in China?

Emily Chang 6:09

It could be I would say, I would say I probably have a pretty good work life integration myself. So I don't think that 996 describes me personally. But it's sort of this common dialogue that's happening right now for the younger people. So it might be age, maybe where China's developed, I mean, where China has come and just 10 years time I've been here since 2011. When I first came over with Apple and now with it's absolutely dramatic. And it's incredible to see the development of the people the culture, the way we approach work. How we define success, yeah, fashion, beauty, everything.

Graham Allcott 6:45

What would you say for people listening to this in the UK, or the US? who, like me don't have a huge knowledge of what the economy looks like in China and work in China? What would you say is interesting to them? What should they look out for?

Emily Chang 7:00

I think something we can learn from China is agility. I would say in Western cultures, generally, we set these key milestones for ourselves, and we define success. And once we have reached what we define a success, you know, our KPIs, then we trigger and launch, I would say China is almost the opposite of that, we just get our minimum viable product out in the market as soon as possible. And that gives us a chance to be in market and learn. And fundamentally, as I'm answering your question, I guess what that comes down to is a difference in definition of failure. Perhaps if we in the West launch something and it doesn't do well, or people criticise it, we might say that that product is a failure, I would say the Chinese will look at something gone out as quickly as possible as an MVP, and find all the kinks in the system, they will call that great learning success. Because I've learned so much quicker how I can make this thing better in the shorter term.

Graham Allcott 7:55

I'd love to just before we get on to the book, let's talk about what you're doing now. So you're CEO, for China for the Macan group. And what does that what does an average day look like? And what are you working on at the moment,

Emily Chang 8:07

this is the most fun job, although I will also say I've said that every time I have a job, so every job is a job. But this is truly the most fun job I've ever had. And I think it's like, I've learned the client side, I've learned the depth of how to run a business, a very run a very complicated p&l. And then I get the opportunity to take this massive sampler powder. It's like a buffet of brands and industries and clients that we get to work with. I think maybe some books do the opposite. And that's also really fulfilling, which is you get a sampler of all these different industries that you pick one to kind of double down on. But because I've only worked for four big companies three before this, you learn you know a lot about Starbucks, you learn a lot about coffee, you learn about the supply chain, you learn about the coffee farmers and the margins of coffee beans versus, you know, the the complex recipes and trainings required to make a frappuccino, then you come here, and it's it's very straightforward. There aren't raw materials, there isn't supply chain, there aren't retail partners, you know, you don't have to suddenly worry about a certain plastic coming to light as being you know, not good for people, we have a very simple p&l, it's all about people. So the two things I love about this job are one, I came from the client side. So I have an understanding not only of who we serve, as well as consumers, but also what I looked for as a client. And now I have the chance to go create that kind of partnership. On the other side. That's really, really great fun, especially in a world like China, where digital is so accelerated. And, you know, we have the opportunity to do so much so quickly with partnerships and affiliations like Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent. So, you know, the sky's the limit, you're the only one is going to get your own way. So that's very exciting. And I think the second thing is just the range of brands that we have the opportunity to work on and the depth of work that we get to do, it's really up to the ideas that we come up with. So that has made it such a fulfilling job. And, and you know, when you're not thinking about supply chain or the logistics of getting a product from A to B, and not to say those, those are actually very, very critical questions that you ask in a business. But when you don't have those questions, all you think about all you obsess about is do I have the right people in the right jobs? Am I taking care of them? You know, the things that keep me awake at night are if I leave the office, and I see people kind of like slowly trudging out. And luckily I can say hand to heart. I haven't seen that in a long time. And as I headed out for this, for this conversation, I saw two people who were super excited. And they were like, Hey, you're leaving already have a great night. When you see people leaving work at the end of the day, and energised and loving what they do, then you feel like yeah, I'm probably doing an okay job right now.

Graham Allcott 10:56

What's your sort of philosophy as a leader? what's your what's your approach? What are the mantras that that keep you going?

Emily Chang 11:03

A couple of things. One is to be approachable. That may not be the first thing that comes up when you talk leadership. But for me, that's really important. When I first went to Guangzhou, invited by a gentleman named Ravi Chaturvedi, he said to me, you're coming in as an XPath. So you're three times more expensive than a local hire. So I expect three times the work. And I also want you to remember, he didn't pull his punches. But he also said I want you to remember is that this is an opportunity for you to demonstrate what you can do in terms of contributing to this business. So as a leader, what are you going to bring? And it really solidified this very simple formula, in my mind, how do I contribute more than I consume? As an expat working as a, as a junior brand manager? How do I contribute more to this team to this organisation to this company than I consume? Because I cost a lot. And then later, as you get older and wiser in your career, you still maintain that formula? You think, how do I contribute more to the people around me than I am consuming from them? How do I give more to this company, and to the people who have chosen to work here instead of working in any other place, so that they feel poured into cared for seen, respected heard? Those are the things that matter the most, as a leader,

Graham Allcott 12:24

I think, you know, some of the really brilliant leaders I've worked with, you just have this sense that they look at leadership as service rather than expecting the people that they work with to serve them as a leader.

Emily Chang 12:37

I think that's absolutely true, especially when you're running a people organisation. That's all you do. I stepped out of my office earlier, we're coming on Thanksgiving soon. And though Thanksgiving isn't a massively celebrated holiday in China, I looked over my admin shoulder and she had all these pictures of Turkeys on her. So I looked at her and I said, Hey, what's with the turkeys. She said, Oh, we have our monthly Happy Hour coming up. And I was thinking, it'd be a great opportunity to print out little cardboard turkeys and have everybody write something, they're thankful for somebody else love the idea. I love that she just comes up with it and knows that she has free rein to do this doesn't even have to ask or bring it up. And I love that we're having these happy hours because the bat the background of these happy hours monthly are exactly what you just talked about ground, which is servant leadership. So we have four different floors, we have three agencies under the cambrils group here. And a lot of them don't know each other or didn't when I first joined, because imagine working in a very high tower. If I want to work on the 10th floor, but want to go visit the 22nd floor if I don't have a reason to go up there. How awkward do I feel walking up there and kind of like looking around. So we built a public space, carved out some space. So everybody can go to everyone else's floor and there's a public space, you can just sit there and work. There's no pressure, but you can kind of see how another agency is operating. We're all one company. And then we realised it wasn't enough to just make the space. We want to encourage people to go use it. So we have this monthly happy hour. And that just enables people to come get some food and drink and talk to each other. But still, it's not enough to make the space. It's not enough to host the happy hour. I think where you break down those last walls of approachability, which goes back to your first question is the leaders serve. So we go out front and we're serving the food and we pour the drinks and that allows people to understand this is not obligatory. This is not like I've signed a check. I will do this once a month. This is we are here. And we're here to serve you guys and we want to get to know you. And when I exhibit that attitude, it's so much easier for you guys to just turn around and get to know each other.

Graham Allcott 14:42

Let's talk about the spare room. Okay, it just feels like a really remarkable story because it's so personal. But let's start with just telling everyone what the spare room actually is. First of all,

Emily Chang 14:53

it's a first of all to euphemism. It's a euphemism for the thing that we each have to offer. You know, not ever Everybody would love to open their spare room up and invite vulnerable young children bring babies in and take care of them for the long term. For us, that's become an offer. It started off when I was single. Later, my husband and I, as a young couple brought in young people. And now with my 13 year old daughter, we have our 17th kid in our spare room right now, over the last 22 years.

Graham Allcott 15:22

How did that begin?

Emily Chang 15:23

I was only 20 years old. I was an undergrad at the University of Rochester. And I happened to drive by I was at a long traffic light and I happen to drive by a girl sitting on the side of the street. And it was not I can't say I was a very good intention person. I can't say I intended to approach this girl philanthropically. In fact, I remember seeing what I thought was like the huddled shape of a homeless person and locking the door. And then I was stuck at the light and I looked again, I thought that's a really small person. Now, I realise it was a young girl. So I unrolled my window and I shouted out into this dark sleeting, Rochester, New York evening said, Hey, are you okay? And I remember, you know, by the by the glove, the traffic light, this little face looked up, and the left eye was swollen shut. There's, there's blood coming out of the corner of her other side of her lip, and she told me to fuck off. And then when a little kid looks like that, and tells you to go away, that's probably the last thing they need. So I asked her if she wanted to just go get dinner. And after we ate dinner quietly, she refused to answer any of my questions. She didn't engage with me. And also again, it wasn't a very comfortable, lovely experience. She got up and started to walk away. This girl that I'll call the and, and then I asked her, where are you going to stay tonight, she was drenched, she'd been dripping grey water all over the diner. She had no bag on her, her clothes were ripped. And she ended up staying the night with me. And I thought, you know, I can have her stay one night, she's about my size, she can wear my clothes, sleep on the couch. And then that one night, Graham turned into a week turned into a month she was with me for a couple of months. And in that period, I learned so much about her and how quickly life can change. She had one bad experience or not one, but she had a very dramatic exchange with her parents who were upset about her grades, they told her to get out, she was worthless. And she did. And you realise, you know, gosh, that that absolutely could have been me. Because sometimes parents are tough on you, they don't really think you're worthless. They're trying to motivate you in their way. Or they lack the words, what they want to say is, I expect so much from you, and you're letting me down. But she took it all to heart and ran away. And you know, a 14 year old who looks eight or nine in the streets had to survive. And she made a lot of choices. She was getting beaten up that night trying to trade sex for food. And of course, my heart broke for her. And I think in many ways, I was the one who was blessed from that experience, because I learned that that's sort of my offence. So if your offer is represented by the spare room, what's your offence, you know, there's something that calls to each of us more than others. There's something that has you creating a podcast with over 100 episodes, it's a lot of work. There's something that had me write this book, there's something that made me stop at that traffic light and invite this dirty beaten up girl into my car. I think that offence is really important. And then I guess the last thing I'd say is, she stayed with me for a couple months, if you had asked me, Hey, 20 year olds getting a double degree and working your way through college, do you feel about sharing your apartment with a team prostitute, I would have been like, I don't even understand what you're asking me. But I found that we have so much more capacity to do the things that are important to us than we might think. And and that capacity comes with abundance, not this sort of fixed mindset of if I give this many hours to Leah, then I'm not going to be able to get my homework done. It wasn't that at all. And you know, at the age of 22 Discover, there's something that really matters to you. And you can actually do something about it and turn this girl's life around, and you have the capacity to do it. And you don't struggle in your job or in your schoolwork, you realise well then what do I have to fear and it makes you so much more open to what's possible in the future. And I think that early, early experience defined a lot of courage, a lot of confidence in me that I probably wouldn't have had later and really sort of shaped the way I became a leader years later, as well.

Graham Allcott 19:13

As you're talking I was also just thinking this that I think we're sort of towards as a society to sort of put a wall around you know, things like homelessness or poverty or whatever and kind of put a wall around it and say well, like this is us and that's them and I think we just lose a lot of that connectivity, don't we? And then like I'm just curious to know what what it was that made you knock that wall down so you're in the car, you could have just kept it locked kept going because that's kind of like what you're conditioned to do. What was that? What was the thing that made you do something else and say, Hey, let's get dinner and obviously go and have a you know, you probably knew it was gonna be quite an awkward dinner, didn't you as well. So you're putting yourself in a position of kind of inconvenience. What was the what was the sort have sparked for that for you.

Emily Chang 20:01

I think what goes through my mind is how could that that could just be me? How is that not me? And I think empathy requires a degree of intentionality. It requires you to kind of stop and say, How am I different than her? What if I had made one different choice or the little boy were taken care of now he was born with hydrocephalus. I didn't do anything to not be born with hydrocephalus. What if I had been and my parents weren't able to take care of me, you know, we're all one step away or one lucky stroke away from being these people. And I think that humility, remembering it and sort of facing into it and not taking for granted everything we have. I mean, I was talking to my daughter last night. And we do we do this routine, we call it HPG. We've been doing it for 13 years, even before she could speak. What is your high your proud and your gratitude? It's not maybe the the best acronym. But we've always thought we always say, hey, HPTS and that means it's time for bed. We always talk about our high our proud and our gratitude. And yesterday, I just suddenly got struck, I was looking at her and I said, you know, my gratitude is that you're so healthy. Like, it's so easy to take for granted the things that have never been wrong. But everything works on her body. She's not sick, she functions well, she's intelligent, you know, I just want to pause and be grateful. And if she weren't, of course, I would love her just as much and do everything I could for her. But it's probably worthwhile saying we did nothing to make sure that happened. That was just luck, that that's how she came out. But I'm so grateful that she did.

Graham Allcott 21:36

Nice. I love that HPG I think I'm stealing that one. Okay, so I'm going to interrupt the podcast, which you know, I don't do very often. And that must mean I've got something very important to share with you. So what I want to share is I've got these two really big events coming up, and I would love you to join me.

Let's talk more about the book. So you talk about social legacy, how early on in doing in starting to do that. And that being your experience? Did you start to formulate ideas around social legacy? And like what is what what does that really mean to you right now

Emily Chang 22:25

social legacy. And let me start with what it means to me. And then kind of where and I landed on the idea. To me, it's just the the summation of two words. So legacy is leaving something better than you found it that goes back to the earlier question you ask, I want to contribute more than I consume. When I touch something, how do I walk away thinking it's a little better, or a person even more importantly, and then social just defines the space in which you want to leave that legacy. And for some people you find it's their home, it's their children's school, they spend a lot of time there. It's their workplace, for others for us wherever we've lived, whether it's Cincinnati, Arkansas, Guangzhou, Shanghai, New York, we've had somebody who needed our spare room, and we've never registered as a foster family, we've never gone out looking for them. Every single young person, baby has found us through a completely different way. You just have to say, that's a little magical. And I think it happens when you say yes, when you're willing to be open and accept a role in wanting to contribute more than you consume, you find that those things come to you. And then I started to realise I think this is a social legacy. So I don't think it was until maybe the seventh or eighth kid, frankly, we're not maybe fast learners, that my husband and I like, gosh, this really just keeps happening. And we came to a point. No matter who shows up at the door. Next, we're gonna say yes, because we've had such astounding experiences and relationships built. And this seems to be something we were designed to do. And then, you know, these kids come to work with me, and our friends through all the different places we've lived. And the the experiences we've shared together, have all met these kids and seen them as part of our family. So people will start asking questions like, why does this keep happening? You know, wow, you guys are you hear something that you think is actually wrong, which is you guys are such great people. I don't think we're any better than anybody else. I think we've just simply embraced this concept. And said, this is our thing that we can do, this is our offer, which means it's really easy for us to do it. By the way, this is our fence, which means we can't let it go. And finding that intersection then becomes something that's so natural. And for me, this is a bit of a paradigm shift grab if, if I'm not trying to convince everyone to open their spare room or trying to convince them that you know, child sex slavery is the biggest issue and everybody has to invest in it. All causes are worthwhile. There's nothing not worthwhile. But when we spend our time and resource trying to convince others that that's the thing, maybe it's not the best use of our own time and resource. Maybe if each of us identified our own social legacy, that becomes the thing that grows in abundance that's easy and joyful for us to invest in, then we find other people who are like minded and we build tribes. For me, that gets to a place where we are really amplifying paying forward our contribution in a meaningful way, without feeling like we're coercing or convincing or fundraising, which I think those are not bad things. Because we want to educate people on things that are not great with the world, but is an even more fluid and accelerated approach.

Graham Allcott 25:29

In the book, what you're really trying to get people to think about is, what are the things that what are the what are the resources that I have, or the things that I can do, to offer to help? And then also, the defence is almost like, what makes me angry, like, what do I want to fix? What are the things that are, you know, really offensive to me in the world? Right,

Emily Chang 25:48

exactly. So chapter one is the offer and defining what your offer is. And you know, because I did spend 11 years at Procter and Gamble, I give a lot of frameworks and ways to think about that. The second one is your offence. And you know, this book also compiles a lot of stories, not just from our spare room, but lots of people, there are people who are junior physical therapists who suddenly heard that there are orphans in the Ukraine, who could be adoptable, but are deemed unadoptable due to simple physical therapy issues. So they just ask themselves, hey, what if we went out there and found an orphanage and tried to do some simple pt. And later, five, six years later, hundreds of orphans from the Ukraine are adopted because of these three women? You know, there's, there's a guy who was in Afghanistan for eight years. And he started to see how these cultures clash, even when you're, you're fighting on the same side, and, and how movement can break that down. And when he came back to the States, he created a completely different model, or woman who was the lead singer of Cirque du Soleil. And she's originally from India. And one night, she heard about the nearby rape case, and it just floored her. And she realised, I have a beautiful voice. I'm using my voice in this amazing creative outlet at Cirque, but what should I be using my voice for? So I think everybody has the opportunity to define their offer their offence, you know? And then the third chapter is that definition of your social legacy. And it's interesting when you ask folks, what do you call social legacy or purpose? If you're in a room of business people, executives, I've been in front of 200, CEOs, and you ask, please raise your hand, if you could articulate your social legacy or your purpose and align? It's always in the single digits. Yeah, because either we have an idea, but we haven't paused to articulate it, or we don't have an idea. But in this world, where you know, I work in the business of brands and helping brands earn meaningful roles and consumers lives. That's what McCann does, how can I run a purposeful business if I don't know what my purpose is as a human being. So that's why the intersection started to come to me, not only the intersection between offer and offence, but the intersection between who I am as a human, and how effective I can be as a leader started to make more sense to me.

Graham Allcott 27:54

Yeah, that's something I wanted to ask you about as well, because so you said at the beginning, that you you didn't go into a caring profession, because you're just you're all in in terms of your empathy and everything. So you've ended up in business. But what's really interesting is, you've ended up in the worlds of business and marketing and brands, but you're still sharing this personal, caring empathy in the business world. So it was almost like you decided, you made a sensible decision about what was going to be best for, I guess, for your kind of work life balance and sanity of not getting too pulled into, like a caring profession, but then you're bringing so much care, you know, to the McCain group, and to all the companies that you've worked for, and really showing a lot of yourself personally. And I think, again, we talked about that wall a minute ago, and there's also this wall of here's my professional self, here's my personal self. And, and you know, what, what you're doing with this book is really opening up to the world and to everyone, you work with all the stories about yourself. So I just wanted to know about whether that was a conscious thing. You know, we always always seem to have this instinct to hide our real selves at work and not not show up as our full self but have this kind of protective professional veneer. Was that a conscious thing to to break down that wall? It was.

Emily Chang 29:19

So I'm going back to Ravi Chaturvedi, who brought me to Guangzhou and told me I cost three times more than local. He also encouraged me to take the all out of leadership. And that's a lesson I carried with me forever. Because there's no place for all which by the way, there's a fine line between on fear. Yeah, when you want to build deeper relationships. So in the beginning, I guess I really came to this realisation with a girl we'll call Lexie. She was we call them ghost children in China when when there was a one child policy some of these kids were not cared for by their parents left behind others picked them up and cared for them. And for a long story reason, she ended up living with us for about seven A month now she didn't have any paperwork. So she couldn't go to school, she was a little bit anxious as well as the family who had raised her about being sort of out in public, she was very pretty. And when you don't have paperwork, you're at risk. So she really just stayed in our apartment, or I would take her with me to Apple. And she would come to work with me. And so everybody started to see her and ask different questions. And I think it was with her that I started to realise, hey, I may not be full time in the field of medicine, but I can take what I'm willing to do, which is be vulnerable and real, and show people who I am as a human being, and do something different in the workplace. And there is a veneer. And I've intentionally decided to not have that veneer. I will be honest, and say, Graham, there are times on LinkedIn, if you've seen my posts where I think, yeah, no other CEOs post this stuff. Am I being too real? Am I not being professional enough? And then I've, I've thought about it and thought, No, I am being who I am. And I think that's important, too, because because, you know, for instance, the 17th kid who's in our spare room right now, he's so cute. We we didn't have our housekeeper come in that day, my husband had to work I said, I'll just bring him to work. Now, could I have arranged other care? Yes, but I intentionally made that choice because it allows me to do a couple things. Here. One, it helps people see that this is real, there really is another child living in our home. And I really do have to care for him. That enables those walls to come down and and enables deeper relationships. I in fact, we had a big WeChat group, which is like a WhatsApp group in China. And I kind of send a note out with a picture of him and me, I sat on the floor because he can't sit up. So he lies down. I said, Hey, we have half an hour between meetings, does anybody want to come meet him? Because he's got hydrocephalus, maybe a lot of people haven't come across a disabled child, maybe they can come meet him. And lots of people came through. If I just said, I have a free half hour come to the CEOs office, I promise you nobody would have showed up. Yeah, but it allows us, you know, to have deeper relationships. And I think the other important thing is when you role model, work life integration, you give permission for other people to do the same. It's one thing if your boss says yeah, if you if your kid is hurt or sick, go home, it's another to see or boss, bring this child to work and lay him on the floor and sit next to him. So yeah, those are deliberate. Are some people gonna look at me and say, Wow, she's not very professional, she's sitting on the floor, or she's a little too casual, maybe, maybe, but that's also who I am. And you should know who you work for. And you should know the kind of culture that I would like to create in the workplace, which is everybody is welcome. Come as you are, bring your kids do what you need to do. As long as you're thriving. I believe you'll do the best work you can. And we'll all benefit.

Graham Allcott 32:41

That's so inspiring. And I think, and so firstly, just want to say keep, keep being you and, and don't worry about that professional, what does professional mean anyway, ultimately, do you know of anybody who's been directly inspired by what you're doing? And then that's had a knock on effect to things that they're now doing?

Emily Chang 33:03

Yeah. Oh, I have one just from last week. So whenever I stay at a hotel, I started this routine when I worked at IHG because I spent a lot of time in hotels, most hotels still have that leather bound folder that has the stationery. And I remember one night I went in and I opened this thing. And I thought when's the last time somebody used the stationery. And I decided right then and there. I'm going to start a new, right. I never ever used it before, but sometimes even have cool postcards. So I decided I'm going to start a routine which is every time I staying in a hotel, I'm going to handwrite a note of one person that just comes to mind at work who I'm grateful for. So people over the years have these letters from me from Hotel Indigo from intercontinental last week, I was at this hotel called Chiddy, which is super beautiful. I was literally sitting on the balcony in a bamboo forest and I took out there I had to go search for their stationery. Now it's a little harder to find. I found the stationery and I thought okay, who do I want to write a note to? And I thought about her. And I wrote her a note and then I had to go find her chase her down because you don't want to leave it on their desk you went to the trouble to write her a note on hotel stationery, it deserves an explanation. So I found her and I gave her the note. And she was sort of like, wow, I don't think I've ever gotten a handwritten note. You know, the people who work for us are much younger to I don't even know that they know how to write anymore with

Graham Allcott 34:24

losing my ability to handwrite these days.

Emily Chang 34:27

Oh, my writing is terrible, truly. But you know, I'll tell you this story just happened today. So I had a quick touch base with her about somebody who's making a career move. And she said, Well, I really wish her luck. I think this is the right move for her. It's the right move for our business. And then she looked at me with a little smile. She said guess what I did? I said what she does, I wrote her a handwritten note. She said I didn't have hotel stationery but I have your note pinned at my desk. So I wrote her a note just said thank you for resigning in such a respectful way. I think this is a great move for you and I wish you the best and you You know, that young girl from this slightly older but still young girl who got this no will probably carry that with her. And so yeah, I think kindness does amplify, there's a ripple effect. And what's amazing is a lot of times, unlike today's experience, we may not see those ripples out two or three, but we know that they're there. And I think that ought to be the most motivating thing we can hear today.

Graham Allcott 35:22

You told me a story when we spoke a while ago about a boss who worked for you, who was really accommodating around everything that you're doing around opening up your spare room, do you want to just tell that story? Because that feels like that, that knock on effect, did you and then you're benefiting all these other people. Tell us about that.

Emily Chang 35:44

Oh, totally. And I'll tell you how he affected me too, in something that I'm doing Friday. Okay, so this guy, he's a hero. His name is Kenneth McPherson, one of my favourite people I've ever had the privilege to work for. We had a special needs kid in our house at that point as well named to the one who lived with us for the longest on and off for five years, a total of three years. And we're in the process of adopting him, because it came to a point where we realised it's going to be really difficult to find a forever family for this boy who's already five years old, who had some significant physical and mental disabilities. And so one day I went to, I went to my boss, and I said, you know, we're going to have to get to the US. I love my job. I love working in China. It's so exciting. But for the benefit of this kid, I think we probably have to go to the US or the UK, you know, but the company has roots in both company in both countries. Could I look at relocating? And I think, you know, in some ways, that was the first time I really proactively looked at sacrificing my career for the betterment of my family, because my family's always been very agile. So I talked to Kenneth and he said, Oh, that's a shame, because we love what you're doing here. But let's see what we can do. Let me know about your timing. And it wasn't super urgent. The adoption process is not super quick. But I wanted to give him a heads up. And then it was about two or three months later, he texted me. He said, Hey, could you come in my office, I want to talk to you. As I walking toward his office, it's all glass. I can see HR sitting in there. And I'm thinking, have I missed something completely? I feel so blindsided. I had no idea. So I walk in and I'm like, What is going on? And he looks really serious. You know, he's this amazing, lovely British gentleman. And he looks at me and he passes this paper across the table to me like this. And he said, I'd like you to read that. And I'm thinking, I've offended somebody, I've done something wrong. It wasn't intentional, oh, my God, and I opened the paper. And it says he would like to help you with adoption fees. And I'm reading it and my eyes are welling up. And I looked at him and he said, I was so touched by what you're doing with this boy, I asked HR, and I realised we don't have a policy to help people, especially international employees adopt local Chinese children. So we'd like to give you the small token that will help you in the adoption fees. Wow. As you can probably tell from our couple conversations, I'm not specialist very often I just sat there and stared at him in our and adoration and you know, this is the name that builds deep loyalty and affinity. And loyalty is not a word to be used lightly in this day and age. This is Kenneth McPherson calls me I would drop everything and do whatever he needed, because he touched me in such an incredibly deep way. And what I was going to say about the pay of foreign pieces. The other thing he did is he used to have Christmas dinners. And he would not just invite his leadership team, he would invite our spouses, okay, which is such an interesting thing, because have you met all your leader, your pure spouse's? Probably not, and we would all go. And we would do the British, like snap the things, you know, most of us British. So we're all trying to figure out like, what are we doing? And why are we doing this? It's actually a great fun, I love it. I love it. But at the end of the night, he handed each of us an ornament. And it had our names on it. And every year he had a different theme. And then he had a no that he gave my husband, not me. And he said, No, this is not for my employees. This is for the spouses. I don't want my leadership team to read these. And we came home and of course, I'm looking over my husband's shoulder and I said, What did he write you? It was a handwritten note from Kenneth to the spouse of each of his leadership team saying, I think my team all the time for what they do. But I want to thank you too, because I know I take your spouse away from your family. And I don't take that for granted. Wow. Again, just blew me away. And that's something I do as well. So this this Friday, I'm having an American Thanksgiving dinner at my house with my leadership team. And I'm inviting their spouses and they find the whole situation incredibly odd. But it was inspired by Kenneth and maybe it is odd. It's a little strange right to sit with your peers already in a social setting at your boss's house with your spouse. It's layers of odd, but it is also the most amazing thing anyone's ever done for me. Do you have

Graham Allcott 39:56

other stories about how kindness has been useful for for your culture within the Macan group or, or perhaps even in previous roles as well.

Emily Chang 40:08

I mean, endless Yes, every every single day. And I think sometimes it's in the grand gesture, like what kind of did with a Christmas dinner that really inspired me and I'm doing the same for Thanksgiving this year. Sometimes it's in the little moments, I remember a moment I was working at Apple, we do something called or we did, I don't know if they do anymore something called the Daily Download. It means our communications team downloads kind of the latest news information and inspiration. And then it goes an iPad to each of the stores. And then the Store team leader opens up the iPad every morning and does a Daily Download and reads through the content. One of the things we started to do was identify small moments of kindness, because we always say we want to welcome everyone into our store with a warm welcome and send them off with a fond farewell. And as we all know, this is marketing, but it's also being good humans. It's the end, it's bookends of every experience that leave something meaningful with us that we remember. And one day, I saw something that I just thought was really touching. And I wanted to put it into the Daily Download. And I told my comms partner wailing. I saw, a lot of times people queue up outside the Apple Store. And it takes them a long time to get into the store to buy the product they want. Especially when there's a new product launch. There was a mother who was holding her baby and for some reason didn't have a stroller. And I saw the housekeeper who normally is in the back of house, kind of cleaning the floors. Notice the situation, go out the back door with an umbrella and just stand alongside this mother, who was holding this baby. And as we know with babies, they get heavy. They're small, but they get heavy after a while and it's raining. And I took a photo of that housekeeper. We call them i In Chinese, I guess it's not janitor. It's like, yeah, it's a storekeeper. So I took a photo of her and we put it into our daily download. And that's not normally the content that goes into Daily Download. But I do think that was again, a sort of a stone in this lake that rippled out with moments of kindness, because everybody loved that moment. This woman has not paid to stand outside with an umbrella, much less for an hour in the cold rain. But knowing that everybody is feeling a sense of responsibility for creating a great experience for giving that warm welcome in that fond farewell. I just saw so many examples of people than stepping outside of their roles. And I think that's something that's really key, whatever my title is, I'm here to create a great experience I'm I'm here to take care of everyone that's around me to leave them better than I found them to leave circumstances better and to help people people feel touched. You know, one of the reason it's evening here, and I'm super full of energy is first, your wonderful and I love talking to you. The second like the measure of a great day is I gave a lot more than I consumed. That's where energy comes from. And it's in the small moments and the big moments, I think sometimes it's the small things that really leave a very deep impact with you and sometimes it's the big grand gestures that you remember for years later.

Graham Allcott 43:06

I think that's just such a lovely place to finish up and just that idea feels very powerful of did I give more than I consume today and that just being a really good approach for for everyday that we live so Emily Chang just want to say thank you so much for being on beyond busy the book is spare room and join it just let everyone know where they can connect with you and anything else you want to share before we end this

Emily Chang 43:32

sure my website social dash legacy.com So that's a great way to see all the new content I write a couple things every week. You can also find me on socials, Facebook and Instagram at the spare room and you can buy the book anywhere books

Graham Allcott 43:46

are sold. Fantastic. Thank you so much for being on beyond busy.

Thanks so much for having me Graham.

So there you go. Thanks to Emily for being on the show. And I honestly could just I could talk to her all day I just really enjoyed that and that HPG thing so simple but I share that on my rubber for the week email and loads of people were really into it and yeah, it just it just seemed to really resonate with people so I'm going to be doing that HPG thing at home as well with my boy and yeah just just really simple but really effective little thing there what was your high What are you proud of? And then what are you grateful for so HPG high proud grateful and I just think it's so simple and so yeah, those are the best ones right those kind of memorable things that you can just kind of take away and just use in any moment so really love that

And thanks also I'm gonna say to Sophie Devonshire who also has a new book coming out herself so check out love work by Sophie Devonshire share to try and get her back on the podcast actually but Sophie was the one who suggested that I talk to Emily and yeah I just really enjoyed that episode Sophie is such a connector and just a friend of the Beyond busy podcast so check out Sophie Devonshire and everything that she does. And also to Pavel and Emilie, my two members of the Beyond Busy team who just make everything happen behind the scenes so just want to say shout out them for freshly keeping the show on the road when I had COVID. So I had COVID. And it wasn't nice. It was sort of weird experiences. It's a nasty little thing, isn't it? Like, if you've had it, I'm sure. Yeah, I've been sort of describing it as parental advice here. But they're describing it as it's a nasty little fucker in it. Because the thing is, you sort of feel like you're better. And then it sort of takes you on this like mad roller coaster thing of getting better, and then not being better. And anyway, so yeah, I feel like I'm on the mend from that. And, yeah, one or two other things, sort of happening behind the scenes here that have been pretty full on. So yeah, it's been it's been an interesting few weeks for sure. Also, just to say that this episode is sponsored as ever, by Think Productive. So if you want us to come in and help your team just go to think productive.com You can get in touch with us. We do everything around productivity workshops, and coaching and also like loads more stuff as well. So just general team development, staff management development stuff, just a whole bunch of stuff. So go check out think productive.com I was felt like I don't sell thing productive very well, I when I when I do that, but you know what I mean? is I just find marketing really, I just don't I do it anyway. So.

Yeah. And then the final story, I want to tell you, before I finish, this was a really special little thing that happened to me recently. So I got to do that thing, where as a massive football fan, so those of you who don't know, I'm a massive Aston Villa fan of in the season ticket holder for I don't know how many years, 20 years or something, probably 25 years now, I don't know. Anyway, I got to take my boy to his first Aston Villa game. And it was as magical as I'd imagined. I probably had been thinking about that moment and what it would be like for 20 years. And if you ever seen the film, Fever Pitch with Colin Firth and Ruth Gemmell, really nice film, actually. But yeah, if you haven't seen it, check it out. But there's a lovely moment in that where he takes his boy to see arsenal, which is this team for the first time. And just that little moment when you just walk through the sort of concourse bit and then into the bit where you start to see the pitch. And just that whole thing of like, here's, you know, here's this huge arena, and like, wow, you know, just that sense of all that you get, and I had that last week. And it was it was really magical. And so yeah, if you want to see some pictures, I put a couple of pictures on my Instagram, which is just at GrahamAllcott. If you're not following me again, have a look. But ah, just such a magical thing. So if that's, if that's something that might be coming across your world in the next few years, then yeah, I just hope that the day that you have with that is as magical as mine was, it really was just such a treat to be able to do that. And yeah, my boy absolutely loved it. So yeah, gotta be taken a whole lot more, we've actually got, we've weirdly got season tickets at two Premier League clubs. Yes, definitely, we've got season tickets available, as we always have. And then I managed to get some season tickets at Brighton as well. So that basically we can go and see a few games without having to do a six hour round trip. And it's so nice to go to a game. So let's get go to a game where a you can be home by six o'clock, like without fail probably even by half five, actually from Brighton, and where you don't have to do the six hour round trip. And also what's really nice is watching a game where you know, I'd like Brighton to win. But I'm not like that bothered, you know, just feel to watch a game from a more sort of neutral perspective where you can actually just sort of understand the tactics and what's going on. Because, you know, when I watch filler, I'm so invested in villone. And I'm sort of you know, sat behind the goal and just kind of seeing my mouth off and shut my mouth off that I don't get to do that thing of just really kind of analysing the game and a bright Miss kind of settle on the sides. And you know, it's more like watching a chessboard sort of thing. Anyway, I'm rambling, but I just thought I'd share that because it was just a really, it's just a really beautiful milestone, and just really important. So in my HPG this week, definitely grateful for that. And also, that's definitely a high, it's really sort of dominated my my reflections over the last few days. So just wanted to share it with you here. There you go. We'll be back in two weeks. With another episode. We've been slightly irregular over the last few weeks, just given my COVID situation and all that. But we'll try and get back to our normal thing of two weekly episodes over the next few weeks got some really good ones coming up, we've actually got General Stanley McChrystal, who was one of the war leaders through the Gulf and Afghanistan, really sort of famous, illustrious history as a big leader in the armed forces in the US. And he's got a new book out. And we're gonna be talking to him that I'm really excited about and just sort of ploughing through his his older book leaders as well, which is really great. So looking forward to having him on and lots more so as ever, if you want to get in touch and suggest guests feel free to it's just Graham at think productive dot code at UK. And if you're not already sign up to my rev up for the week email, which comes out once a week, every Sunday for 5pm something productive or positive for the week ahead and just go to Graham allcott.com. And you can find the form on there and everything I'm doing is it Graham allcott.com forward slash links if you just want to sort of check out this snapshot, just google.com forward slash links and it's all there.

I'll see you in two weeks time. Take care bye for now.

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Edited by Pavel Novikov: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pavelnovikovf/