How to be a Calm Parent with Sarah Ockwell-Smith
Graham Allcott 0:07
My guest today is Sarah Ockwell Smith. Sarah is one of the world's leading parenting experts having written 13 books and sold half a million copies. Her philosophy of gentle parenting is hugely influential in the motherhood WhatsApp groups of Great Britain and her latest book, How to be a Calm Parent has as much to tell us about how to look after ourselves as it does, how to look after our kids. In this episode, we talk about how to be calm self kindness, that peaceful pentagon and why being a busy parent isn't actually something to be proud of. This is Sarah Smith. There we go. We're rolling on with Sarah Smith. How are you?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 1:25
Good. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Graham Allcott 1:26
Yeah, it's really nice to talk to you. And I read on your biog that you've written 13 books about parenting. So yeah. I'm just sort of coming up to the end of my sixth book right now. And, and I'm like, I'm constantly telling myself, it's my last one. Is that something you've told yourself? Every book for the last 12 books? Well,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 1:51
I mean, last year, I wrote two. So I've got two out this year, like one next week and one in about four months time. And I've made a vow to myself that I'm not writing another one this year. I'm sticking to it so far. I just really would like a year off. I like writing, but I haven't actually had a year off writing since 2011. So
Graham Allcott 2:11
Wow. We'll see. Okay, yes, it's 2011, one or
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 2:15
two years since 11. Yeah. And
Graham Allcott 2:18
what's your secret to being able to produce it at that volume? Because, you know, I find it? I mean, juggling it? I have one kid and I co-parent. So you know, in many ways, I have half a kid. And yeah, and I just find the struggle of fitting that in alongside everything else is really real. So like, what's your secret to? To keep you on schedule.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 2:44
Um, I didn't really have fun, you know, my kids are older. So they're between 14 and 20. So they're much more self sufficient at that age. So I mostly work when they're at school or college or something like that. I just do less of other stuff. Like a date. I rarely do housework and stuff like that, you know, there is no secret is there. If you work really hard at one thing, then you have to do less of something else. So for me, it's less housework. I've got like, I'm literally sitting in my kitchen at the moment. And I can see I've got a mountain of washing on the floor that hasn't been done. So
Graham Allcott 3:17
I was gonna say less housework is either involves mess or a good cleaner. Yeah,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 3:21
but, you know, I'm too I mean, I don't need to talk about it later. I'm such a perfectionist, I can't have a cleaner because not in I don't like the work that they do. But because I really insane. I don't if anybody else is the same I have to clean before they come. So it actually makes me more stressed. I've tried, you know, I have for about six months. And it made me so stressed that on the morning the cleaning was due I had to get up and clean everything so that she wouldn't see everything dirty.
Graham Allcott 3:45
So I suppose it's good to have a deadline. So the thing for me is when I go away for a weekend because I live in Brighton, and it's a nice place to be I've got a place on Airbnb. And one of the big benefits of being on Airbnb is that it it's my deadline to sort of make the decisions about clutter and move stuff out. So it kind of really forces me to be more minimalist knowing that I've got this deadline of it all having to be speaking on.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 4:12
No I couldn't do that.
Graham Allcott 4:15
So the book we're going to talk about is how to be a con parent, which I mean, I read the title and I thought Yes, please. That's definitely something that I do. But like just before we get into the book, I mean, everybody's had a really difficult last couple of years. But at the start of the book you tell your story of of the last couple of years. And it sounds like you've you know, you've had a few more challenges the most over the last few years. Do you want to just took us took us through that?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 4:43
Yes. So I mean, people have been asking me to write this book for a good decade now. And I would always say, I don't think I can write that. I don't think I can do it justice because I'm really not calm. I have huge anger issues and I just really felt that it would be really useful. authentic for me to write it. And actually, to be honest, I didn't know what to put in it either. So in all of my books, there's been like a little chapter that talks about being calm and self care. And actually, it's not what you do or say to children, it's how you are, that makes a difference. So there's always been a little bit about it. And I've always known that I needed to get better at it. And then it kind of became the book that needed to be written, like everybody was saying to my publishers, were saying to me, oh, let's do a bit about this. So I kind of thought, Alright, I'm going to do this and then sort of corresponded with, for me, I was diagnosed with cancer, and the COVID lockdown hit all at the same time. And my default mechanism for coping with stress is to be more busy. So I have a cast classic kind of freeze and formed stress style. So I people please, and I get really busy to sort of be sticking my head in the sand and ignoring things by being more busy. And I basically couldn't do that anymore. I had to slow down because I had to have surgery and stuff, but and then after that happened, I actually ended up working sort of the very next day, because COVID hadn't quite hit, then you know, there were rumblings about it, but we weren't in lockdown. But then full lockdown happened. And I had to basically think, Alright, I actually need some time to recover now and I need to, for me, I felt like I had to recover. I'm not really a very spiritual person, but spiritually is the best way to fit here, like emotionally and spiritually as well as physically. And I was really forced to do that, because everything was shot. And I couldn't go and run off and run workshops and do talks and do whatever else I would have ordinarily done. So in some ways, the book is sort of oddly autobiographical, in that it's pretty much the journey that I went on, to learn how to be calm and deal with my demons. And it, it kind of grew from that. It's like a really personal book for me, in that I talk about all my flaws and the process that I went through, but it feels the most authentic and the most real for me, because it's something that I really have experienced. And I really do genuinely feel that I've changed as a result of it.
Graham Allcott 7:11
How would you describe that? Sort of periods were the the kind of shortcut where you did have to stop. And then you're just sat there with your own thoughts, and you no longer have that busyness that I think so many people are addicted to, aren't they? How would you describe that sort of initial shock? And what did you learn about yourself,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 7:32
um, terrifying, to be honest. One thing I think I have learned is one of my children has ADHD, and I'm almost certain that I have it as well. I really sort of, I struggle hugely with the sort of getting started with things and the procrastination side, but I really struggled with having nothing to do. And it was just not being anywhere not talking to anybody. I just didn't know what to do with the time. And I find I still, well, less so now. But I find it more stressful, to relax and do nothing than I do to be really busy. I think my whole life I've kind of thrived on living on cortisol. And yeah, yeah, constantly keeping on going but know that the doing less was awful. From a like from a movement perspective, being confined to the house, but from the fact that I couldn't be busy and I couldn't escape what was happening in my mind as well. And so
Graham Allcott 8:26
in terms of how that's changed your parenting, so slowing down, and you know, and really sort of taking that time, have you noticed changes in terms of your own parenting and what's been
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 8:39
different. So I think I took time to really understand myself and where I came from. It sounds silly, but we spent sort of so much time growing up and moving on to the next thing and the next week, we don't really spend time retrospectively looking back at our past and thinking was that healthy for me, you know, how did it affect me, we just keep on pushing forwards. So it gave me a long time to look backwards. And what I really learned as well is that when I do less, I'm actually a much better person. But I have this almost self sabotaging mechanism that if I'm not busy, I feel that I need to do something and I'm a chronic people pleaser. Which again, I know is very much linked to my upbringing. But if somebody is asking for help with something I'm writing, they're volunteering, where I was. But I think the biggest thing that I learnt from the whole slowing down thing was to say no a lot more to other people to have those boundaries to say no, I'm really sorry, I can't help and to not jump in and volunteer and that that has made the hugest difference to my peace of mind but to my parenting as well because I'm not constantly busy and trying to do something else. I've got more time for my kids but more importantly more time for me to be more relaxed and karma and I don't get it right all the time. You know, I always thought I should have called a bit how to be a calmer parent not to be a calm parent. because, you know, nobody's calm all the time. But I'm definitely a lot better. And obviously that reflects in your kids as well.
Graham Allcott 10:07
So let's talk a bit about the book. So how to be a calm parent. And you've got these seven principles of being a calm parent or Karma parent. The first one is, everybody can be a Karma parent.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 10:18
So the amount of parents I meet, who believe that you're either calm or you're not, they, they kind of view calmness as a fixed trait. So we'll look at the more other people are calm, I'm not calm. It's kind of not worth me trying. It's very much I'm sure you talk about fixed and growth mindset. So they're very much in the fixed mindset of calmness is something you have or you don't have. And if they don't have it, then it's not really worth trying, you know, that's not how they were born. But I really, truly don't believe that's true. I believe that everybody can be karma. There's obviously things that getting our way. So what's happening in their life at the moment, depending on sort of set amounts of privilege you have and whatever. We can't all be like Uber Zen, calm gurus, but we can definitely improve on where we are at the moment.
Graham Allcott 11:04
And what I love is that the second one that follows it up is everybody loses it at times.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 11:10
Yeah. And I think it's really hard for me, and I never gave myself the term a parenting expert. And I actually really hate that term. I think what I am is more an expert in kind of taking the research and the knowledge and translating it into something that's easier for parents to understand. But because I have this term and this label, people seem to think that I'm like, really perfect. And I think that's really scary. If you've got somebody giving you parenting information or advice, and you think that they've got their Can I swear on it. They've got their shit together all the time. Yeah. And that's just not true. Every single person including me, absolutely loses their shirt many, many times, you know, maybe not weekly, maybe I did lose it weekly. Maybe I'm now on to monthly now or fortnightly. But even me as an expert. Absolutely. Everybody doesn't matter how calm you think they are, or how together they are. Everybody goes through periods where they are really struggling with being in control and karma decades,
Graham Allcott 12:11
is it like almost must be like doubly stressful for you. You know, if you do lose your shirt, it's like the people around you who know you like Yeah, but you're the one that writes the books. Most of us make it harder for that even to be allowed to have thankfully,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 12:27
I'm not at the stage that that happens in public anymore, because my kids are like, if I had toddlers that would have been much harder. Yeah, but it will obviously it will happen behind closed doors. Now. The worst thing that happens is one of my kids will inevitably say, I thought you're a parenting expert, you're meant to know what you're talking about. You're not meant to shove in your in your video, you say that this is really bad. So yeah, I think that's the worst that I get. And maybe my next door neighbour here and me shouting.
Graham Allcott 12:55
Yeah. I mean, why did I not thought of that? That's the most obvious thing, isn't it that like the people who are going to most use that against you're going to be your own? teenage kids? Yeah, I really love like those principles. And like the the idea that messing up doesn't undo all the good, was a really give off me and it feels like that is something that is, you know, equally applicable to sort of any self development and, and how we're growing our job. So just tell us about your experiences of that. So there's this idea that Yeah, well, when we screw stuff up, it doesn't actually undo all the good work that we've done before.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 13:33
We have such a defeatist attitude, don't we, it's like if you've eaten really healthy for the whole month, and you have a donuts, we automatically leap into thinking all that said, I've undone it all now I may as well sort of binge and have another one, there's no going back, which is insane. You know, it hasn't undone all of the nourishment that you've put in your body in 30 days previous. In just the same way if you've kind of really nailed being calm with your kids for a month, and then you have a hideous shouting episode. It's not going to undo what you've done, you know, children are really resilient. And I think the one thing that more parents should understand is it is actually really important that we mess up and that we lose our temporary yarn and whatever because if we don't, our kind of the perfect parenting err that we portray is actually terrifying for our children, we end up raising them with perfectionist tendencies, which is never a good thing for anybody. It just makes us seem unobtainable, and they can't share their emotions with us. But the most important thing is when we mess up it allows us to make things right again. So the Psychologists call this the rupture and repair cycle. In the book I call it the holler and heal cycle. So when you've screamed or yelled or you've done something, you absolutely can repair it. What you need to do is to apologise to your child and make things right. But that's really hard because most of us were raised as children never been on the receiving end of an apology from an adult, you know, when I speak to parents and say, Do you remember your parents, a teacher, somebody who had authority over you apologising to you and admitting they're wrong. And most people really can't, you know, we were raised with a, do, as I say, not do as I do, adult is always right adult should be respected. So it's quite a hard thing for us to say, I'm really sorry that that was nothing about you, that was about me, I shouldn't have yelled, I shouldn't have shouted, I shouldn't have given you that silly punishment, I was wrong. How can I make it right to you. And when we do that, it's so important because it helps the connection we have with our children, it helps them to be real and authentic with their emotions around us. But also, it really helps them as they grow, to know how to make things, right, whether it's with their own children, whether it's with a work relationship, whether it's with friends, you know, or a romantic relationship, it helps them to know how to resolve conflict. And so many children grow up not knowing how to they just go and retreat into themselves and shut themselves away in a room and don't share how they're feeling. So we must look on the times that we screw up is actually maybe the most important times of parenting,
Graham Allcott 16:11
and I suppose, you know, the idea of apologising, and the word sorry, is always vulnerable, isn't it? Yeah. Do you have any, any thoughts for people on you know, sort of how to how to lean into that vulnerability, because it just, it feels really uncomfortable. To be honest,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 16:29
all of this work is vulnerable, because it all relates back to how we were raised and feelings that we've not dealt with. And it's really difficult work. And I think just acknowledging that it's really important, apologising or feel really alien to you, when you first do it. And it's a bit like, think of it like a muscle. So when you start working out, it's really, really hard, but you practice it more, and it'll get easier. And your apology doesn't have to be perfect either, you know, even attempting to apologise is helpful, but you have to kind of take the pressure off yourself and think you're learning, you're gonna make mistakes, when you apologise as well as apologising for your mistakes. And that's okay, just kind of, in general, everything that I talk about is just being kinder to yourself, lowering the expectations of yourself and understanding it's okay to mess up as long as you pick yourself up and keep trying. Yeah, absolutely.
Graham Allcott 17:21
So I'm reading your book on kindness at the moment. And so I was really interested to see your chapter on self kindness, which I agree with you is just hugely important. And you've got this concept of the peaceful Pentagon in there. Do you want to talk about the peaceful pentagon? Because I think sometimes people have a sense that they need more self care, which is like a really awful word, isn't it? Often, it's sort of it's so loaded. And, you know, people want to be kinder to themselves, but then often it's like, okay, where do I start? What do I do? And I think you break it down really nicely with this idea of the peaceful pentagon. So yeah, tell us about it.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 17:59
I mean, I think the term self care is really damaging. To start with. It implies that if we're struggling, it's our fault. Because we've not done self care enough, it implies that we have to do more. And when you're tired parent, you know, particularly if you've got a younger child, and you've had no sleep and someone saying you need to do more breathing exercises, or you need to go to a yoga class or something, it's just too much. It's more stuff that we have to do, you know, we were always trying to solve problems by doing more. But then in the other hand, if you do the self care, and it doesn't work, then you're often left thinking, Well, I've tried self care, and I still feel terrible, it must be me. So I think avoiding it's also become such a buzz term, hasn't it? You know, so many companies use it to advertise products now, particularly aimed at mums. There's like whole ad schemes aimed at mums doing self care. So I kind of sort of throw that term out the window and say, look, it's a whole journey, there are so many things involved in becoming karma. One of the things to do is to just be kinder to yourself, and that doesn't involve any form of paying for massages, or lavender bubble baths or anything like that. It's basically just realising that you're a person and you're doing your best and just, you know, treat yourself with the same kindness you with your children or other people. But alongside the self kindness, which is it's really it doesn't take time it doesn't take money, it's just about having conversations in your head. But we also can't avoid the fact that there are other things that you know, kind of basic lifestyle hygiene almost that makes a difference. So the piece will Pentagon is that there are five specific things that I think are really important. It's like the groundwork or the scaffolding that we have to get in place before we sort of really improving himself kindness, which just really simply eating well. And I don't mean like nutrition advice, eating well, there's no nutrition advice in it at all. I talk about sort of intuitively eating so it's trying to avoid like kind of like the diet mindset and just Eating when you feel hungry, if you want something with sugar, go eat something with sugar. Don't sort of punish yourself Self with your eating. Things like being mindful. If you're deficient in anything, obviously, you know if you're deficient in magnesium or B six, or something that will maybe affect how you think and feel. So just really basic, are you eating what you need to do? And are you eating mindfully, sleeping well, which is such a huge one, particularly when you have young children who don't sleep. But yeah, one of the things I talk about is when we do have young children who don't sleep, we're quite obsessed with their bedtime routines and what their bedroom is like, and we buy all of these products to help them sleep. But then what we completely forget is our own sleep. So we'll have done a nice one hour long bedtime routine with perfect lighting and smells and reading storybook, and then we'll just collapse in a heap in bed with our phone and, and do nothing to help ourselves. So applying that same basic sleep hygiene rules and having a bit of a bedtime routine, and prioritising relaxation, sleep is really important. You also
Graham Allcott 21:05
said as part of that, try and only have one pillow, which I just thought was really,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 21:10
really some bizarre random tips. But yeah, if you have to pillows, it lifts up your head and neck in such a way that it kind of clicks it and is uncomfortable, but also can impact on your breathing and your oxygen intake. Yeah, I mean, we're not
Graham Allcott 21:21
meant to pillows down to like the most just one minimal that you can get away with
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 21:27
pretty much if you think we kind of meant to sit flat, aren't we, but there's so much we do in like modern life today, sleep wise, that screws up sleep, whether it's ours or our children. And then so we've got resting well, which is just sort of taking time to relax, which isn't self care, because self care is doing something, but just time to just chill out and do nothing or do something you enjoy moving well. So it's basically talking about exercise. And what was really interesting is there's some research that came out just after, I think it was the first COVID lockdown that looked at new parents and their stress levels. And what they found is they went into it thinking, you know, new parents really stressed what's going to improve their stress levels and their mental health. Surely, it's got to be more sleep. Because that's what every new parent wants isn't it is more sleep. And they compared it with new parents who maybe still weren't getting enough sleep, but they got more exercise. And they found that the impact of the exercise was significantly better than the impact of more sleep. So in other words, having less sleep, but doing more exercise, leaves parents feeling less stressed and more relaxed. And I always you know, have such a love or mostly a hate hate relationship actually with exercise because it's I think it's when we were younger, we all used to love moving our bodies didn't we as young children, we jump and skip and run and like the worst thing you can imagine when you were five was keeping still. But then we start school and it becomes another lesson like we have a PE lesson. And it's not about moving freely anymore. It's about moving in this way in this lesson and this way in this lesson. And then they start teaching about healthy living and the importance of exercise. And then it becomes another kind of chore, and we lose the joy of moving because it feels good. And if you weren't very good at exercise or sports or pee at school, then you can very much fall into that again, that fixed mindset of, well, you know what this exercise thing isn't for me, it's for people who are naturally good at or something, which is definitely not what I was in, you know, it was hopeless at sports at secondary school. So as soon as I left, that was it I didn't do exercise anymore. And then, obviously, I felt that I needed to and over the years I've tried like yoga and tai chi and Pilates. And nothing was ever quite right for me like a being my Pilates class, still being anxious about something. And then again, this is sort of partly because of the cancer diagnosis. If you do exercise, I think three times a week for 150 minutes, it reduces the risk of recurrence by like 50 or 60% something massive. So I was like okay, I need to do some more exercise, but this time it needs to be fast paced. So I found CrossFit which is something that I thought I would absolutely hate. But I go into this, like I'm probably the oldest and the most unfit person there and I go into the crossfit box. And there's really loud rock music or dance music and I literally sort of throw things around or like lift heavy weights and grant a lot and I really love it like I'm so bad at it. But I'm still really fit but then I've got all of these muscles and I feel really strong and it's just really fun. And I think what I found is that fun that I had when I was five that same you know being it's just so different. When you find something that clicks for you and it's not a chore you do it because you enjoy it and the difference it makes like I'll wake up in the morning and think I really don't want to exercise I can really hurt and We are ache, I'm tired, and wants to just roll over and go back to sleep. But then I go when I come back, kind of buzzing, which is really nice. And the last one up to five is spending time in nature, which I'm, if you believe in astrology, I'm a Taurus. So I'm an earth sign. And I'm really, for me getting out in nature and touching the earth, whether you sort of talk about grounding, or whatever, it's really important. Like, I've never worn shoes outside, I'll always walk outside on the earth barefooted. For me, sort of over COVID and recuperating, I've got a little greenhouse and that was just my sanctuary, I love getting my hands in all the soil and like I'll end up with everywhere and a big mess and growing seeds and stuff. But just spending time in nature is so important. And again, sort of, if you look at the research into sharing Yoku, which is the Japanese art of forest bathing, there's so much research that shows when we spend time, particularly in forests, they lower our stress levels, and there's chemicals given off by the trees that actually have a really direct impact on our body physiology. So when my kids were young, or when it was really tough at home with them, that my kind of like the mantra was, if in doubt, go out, like bundle them all up and just get outside somewhere. And I think we could kind of embrace more of that as adults.
Graham Allcott 26:20
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you know, that just feels like such a good list of five things that anybody listening to this can just think about which one of these do I need a bit more of, you know, eating well, sleeping, well, moving, resting and getting out in nature. And just like the all of us need, all of those things. And all of us probably have one that we're neglecting a little bit or could do a little bit more.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 26:43
And they're so simple. Like, it's not rocket science, is it? I think we all know this, but I think they tend to be the first things that we neglect when we're busy.
Graham Allcott 26:50
The other thing you've got to write in self kindness is the idea of self talk. And there's a really nice little bit where you sort of give some bullet points and say, These are the kind of phrases that I'd want my kids to be saying about themselves. And then like, flipping that around and saying, Well, actually, do we say that about ourselves? One of them is, I am worthy of love. Yeah,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 27:12
you know, if you will want to raise children to be happy and confident and have great self esteem. I listed the amount of questions I get from parents are around that taboo topics, sort of how do I help my child with their self esteem? How do I get them to just feel better about themselves. And again, it's not about there is so many things you can buy in our sort of like flashcards and colouring in books and storybooks for kids designed around improving their self esteem and their motivation and confidence. And I think we've got it completely wrong if we go down that route. And this is just a sort of a classic example where it really does come back to us if we are full of self hatred and self loathing. And we don't have much confidence and esteem from ourselves. It doesn't matter how many flashcards or colouring books or books we buy our children, or courses that we put them on or whatever, they are basically going to learn about how to feel about themselves based on how we feel about ourselves. And if we want our kids to think I'm worthy of love, we have to think that about ourselves, too. We can't raise them to be different from us.
Graham Allcott 28:17
And I suppose that sort of leads us on to maybe talking about guilt. And you've got this whole chapter which just fits really well into just everything I like talk about on beyond busy. So why we should stop having it all.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 28:31
When you have children. Basically, you feel guilty about everything, don't you think I should be happier, so that my children would be happier, but if being happier involves being away from them, or I don't know diverting time or money from them, then we feel guilty, so we can't win there. And one of the things I talk a lot about in the book is for working parents and the hideous guilt that accompanies that, that you just think you just whatever you do, but if you stay at home, you feel guilty about that, because you're not earning money. And maybe you're not when you think you're not showing a good impression to your children. But then if you go to work, then you're also thinking, Well, I'm not spending enough time with my children. I'm missing important things. And I think it's something that's much more most of the book applies to both men and women. But I think this is one that's really key for working mothers or stay at home mothers, I think we're still not on a par with men with how society thinks about us whether we're working or whether we're staying at home mothering wise, you know, mothering is really undervalued stay at home mums are really seen by our society as lazy and sort of trying to get all the benefits and not working, not contributing to the society. But then when we go out to work, we're seen as too ambitious or maybe a bit negligent or you know, too focused on the money. And then in the meantime, you've maybe got a career that you've worked really hard for, that you want to achieve, but you've then got the pull of but if I do that, I'll see less of my children. And then you sort of your career aspirations start come crumbling and then you become unfulfilled and your confidence is low and we end up with this kind of really horrible vicious circle of we can't win no matter what we do. And I think there is no answer to that. Whether you're a mum or a dad, there is zero answer. Whatever you do, whether you work with you don't work with your busy or whether you're not busy, you will always feel guilty. And guilt is just a part of our life. And I think that I don't know what the answer is, you know, I say in the book, maybe it's not the best thing to say in the book. But you know, particularly when we're talking about working parents, there is no answer. What we need is such a seismic shift in our society with the way that we view work, and parents, which I think maybe a little bit has started to happen because of COVID, and the flexible working, but just in the way that everything in our culture is set up. We can't change things in this generation, I don't think so we have to live with the guilt. And I think maybe we need to just be a little bit more comfortable living with the guilt and realise that everybody has it. We're never not going to have it. And actually, I think it also means we are a good parent. Because if we're feeling guilty, and we're worried, it already shows how much we care.
Graham Allcott 31:14
Yeah, I suppose skill is a sign that you care. I mean, I love that bit. There's a bit at the start of that chapter where I think it's like someone else's talking to you. And they say, the trouble with being a working mom is that you're supposed to work. Like you don't have kids, and you're supposed to pair and like you don't have a job. And just the expectation of that is is frightening. But then also you like, presumably anyone who's working parent cares about their job, and also cares about wanting to do a good job, you know, back at home with their kids, too, right?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 31:49
Yeah. So you've got two full time jobs that you're trying to fit into one full time job, and it will never happen for anybody with it. You know, it doesn't even matter if you're super rich. And you've got nannies and cooks and cleaners and chefs. Because you still it's time that we're lacking and we Yeah, I'm we just have to I think we have to just comes back to being kinder to ourselves and understand there is no answer. There is no perfect there is I talk in the book about something called the Nirvana fallacy with this idea that we're often so mean to ourselves, because we think that there is a perfect solution to something, there is a perfect answer. The world is very black and white. But there isn't a nirvana. It's all the Maquis shades of grey in between. And whilst we perceive that there's this Nirvana, we will always feel that we're not quite living up to it that we've not nailed it that we've not got it right. But it doesn't exist, yet. We still pursue it. And while we're pursuing it, we're still full of all this guilt and stress. And we have to just let the idea go that there's some perfect solution, perfect life balance, or work home balance, because there isn't,
Graham Allcott 32:54
have you come across anything that's worked for you to just help you let go with that idea, and helps you to let go of guilt.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 33:03
I think just observing and listening to children, rather than observing and listening to your own thoughts, and realising actually, I've created pretty cool kids who are pretty happy here. I've done a good job. And, you know, for me, when my children were much younger, and I was out all weekend doing, I don't know, workshops, or talks or something like that, and I get home and I'd spent all weekend thinking that I'd ruined their life that I was away from them in these formative years. And I'd get home and find out that they'd had a wonderful weekend, and they were really happy. And the nicest thing actually, for me was when they stopped really missing me. It sounds silly that I come home, and I wouldn't have the morning to the door anymore. They're like, Oh, hi, mom. And that, yeah, just realising that you've raised pretty good kids, I'm pretty sure they're well adjusted. Look how happy they are. And step out of your own thoughts into reality. So
Graham Allcott 33:57
minds eight, so I'm nowhere near that stage yet. But I can imagine the first time you realise they don't miss you that much. It must be a bit of a wounds to the ego and then like, so much while you can sort of rationalise it as hard as this is a good thing.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 34:12
You're right on the kind of the transition age aren't you have like the I call it little parenting and big parenting. So you're kind of the little parenting here and the big parenting here. And the children themselves don't know whether they want to be big or be little. And it's a real time of change for everybody is funny.
Graham Allcott 34:27
Sometimes you look at them, as you know, eight year olds, you can look at an eight year old as being one day, you can sort of just turn around and look at them and you see a child and then the next day sort of turn around. It's like you're a little grown up, man. It's just like sitting at the table eating your fish fingers and you're a little a little grown up man.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 34:47
We spend like the first sort of seven to eight years and it's so claustrophobic being a parent because they need you all the time and they need you so much and you basically spend that time thinking actually like a bit more time to myself and then you become a customed to it, you kind of deal with it and live with it. And then as soon as that happens, as soon as you've kind of got happy with the transition to parents of fatherhood and motherhood, then they grow up and they start to break away from you. And it's like, Oh, my goodness, I have to detach. Now, you know, I've spent all this time growing roots, but now I need to give them wings. And it's, I've always said, you know, I think it's much harder to then detach and give them the wings than it is to grow the roots. Yeah, parenting in between, and
Graham Allcott 35:27
it's interesting roots and wings. Well, this podcast is called Beyond busy. And busyness is obviously a constant theme. So I should probably say congratulations on being awarded Britain's mum 2012. Yeah. Tell us how that came about.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 35:45
So I won't name names, because I think it was well meant. So it was basically a bit of a PR campaign that what I've realised since working in the parenting industry, and absolutely as an industry is that most people in the PR companies and the ad agencies, marketing companies are all young people with no children. And somebody had thought it would be a great idea to publicise this mobile phone, work network, you know, international mobile phone network, to come up with this idea of let's awards, Britain's busiest mum. And let's tie it with the release of a brand new phone. And we can show how this phone and our Wi Fi makes life much easier for her to multitask on the go when she's juggling. And it's it seemed like a good idea, doesn't it? Like if you're a 21 year old, fresh out of uni with no responsibilities? So I entered it, because you know, why not? I thought I am pretty busy. The prize was makeover in a in a really big glossy UK magazine, a Caribbean holiday and a phone and I'm like, Okay, that sounds really cool. And I am quite busy at the time. So I have four children who at that time were between like four and nine, I think. And I was on the PTA, the Parent Teacher Association of our school, and our preschool, and I was writing books, so had a career as an author. I also was a co director of a company I just set up training others for parenting lessons. And I was also working as an antenatal teacher teaching pregnant couples, how to have babies and doula like I would actually go to the birth and hold people's hands and catch vomit and stuff. So I had a lot on my plate. And I thought, Okay, well, I think I'm quite busy. So I entered and then I won, which is quite shocking. And I got traipse into London and I had hair and makeup and a photoshoot won my prize, which was really lovely. And I felt quite proud at the time because, again, I think this almost comes back to being a woman when you're a mom. Seeing being seen as kind of busy and contributing to the economy and raising children. It's almost like society thinks that. I don't know like, you're more worthy, the more you do, and I'd had a really kind of high flying career in the pharmaceutical industry that I gave up when I had my first child and I've been a stay at home mum for five years. And that really dented my confidence because I found that people didn't want to talk to me because I was boring because I just raised kids. So it was really proud at the time of like, yeah, look at me, I've got four kids, I've got four jobs, I've written two books and how wonderful it is like finally people are noticing that I am contributing. And I look now and say in the book at the same time, I kept going to my GP because I was just really tired and almost crying on my GP and saying what's wrong with me? Why am I so tired, and I had so many blood tests and the GP was like it's not it's nothing physical. You know, you're just a bit stressed maybe you're doing a bit too much. And I was in such a mess like this magazine I look all glossy in print and printed on my makeup on my hair. But I would go like a week without brushing my hair and just putting it back in a ponytail and it would be like a matter of like tangled bird's nest hair. And I would my kids would look beautiful in designer clothes and I'd be just looking at mess feeling a mess and it was hideous, you know, if I could change one thing about parenting now if I could turn back time, it would be to do significantly less like drop all the balls and just be one really well. But it was I think now such a damaging piece of PR in such a damaging contest that you know threats when Britain's busiest mommy may as well have just said let's find Britain's most frazzled, most exhausted, most burnt out mom and reward her for pushing herself past the point of where nobody should ever be pushed. So I mean, I think we still kind of talk about it. We don't do contests for it anymore. But we still reward busyness
Graham Allcott 39:57
and it's this idea that busyness is a badge of honour. on it, right. And rather than seeing busyness as actually a very damaging sort of symptom of how society is set up and the pressures that people
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 40:11
face, and often the sign that people aren't coping, like I said, with me, when I'm really stressed, I, my default is to go to business, which comes back from when we were children. And when we have big emotions, and our parents or our teachers would distract us. That's essentially where it comes from. It's the distraction from feeling. It's not healthy is it whatever way you look at it
Graham Allcott 40:31
distraction from feeling like that phrase, there's a couple of things that you talk about in the book. And in that chapter, in terms of how we can mitigate busyness or stop being so busy. One of them, which I think is just, it's just great business advice, as well as good. personal advice is about saying no, and trying to say no, more often. So you mentioned there. If you could turn back time, what you do is, is try not to just juggle all the balls and just, you know, drop some of them and just do a few things. Well, and that involves a lot of saying no, so like, what are your What are your tips on how to say no, gracefully, how to make it okay,
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 41:14
I think realise that saying yes, doesn't make people like you more, was a really big thing for me. So again, comes back from childhood, you know, I was always this good girl, I was obedient. Because I was praised for being good and doing what people asked of me. And that kind of stuck with my psyche as I grew up, and my how I thought people liked me more if I was obedient and helped them and said, Yes. And I thought if I said no, that it would make them feel poorly off me. And I realised, actually, that really isn't true. Some of the people that I really admire, say, no lots, and it doesn't change how people think about them. So it's a bit of a mind shift, and then really helped me was having just a few stop phrases. So I would chronic people pleaser, I would just if somebody asked me to do something, However busy I was, I would just say yes, because I was too embarrassed to say no. But having it's also silly, but I literally had a note saved on my laptop with three different ways that I could say no, that I would literally copy and paste into like an email, something like, thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm at capacity right now. So it's saying, actually, you know, this, this whole idea? I don't know who said it, but there's a phrase that no is a complete sentence. We don't have to say, No, this is why we can just say no, that doesn't feel right. To me. I am too polite. But adding something like you know, I'd love to it sounds great. I just can't right now, or I don't think this is me. But good luck.
Graham Allcott 42:40
Yeah. But no is a complete sentence is it is a really sort of empowering thing, though, isn't it? So even though, you might then add one of your scripts that I want to hear well, the other the other two are as well. But like, even if you're going to add No, I'm actually a capacity right now. Just knowing that no, would have been enough. It's almost it's like it feels to me, like so much.
yeah, the other scripts that work, thank you for thinking
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 43:03
of me. And the other one is like flattery, saying it sounds like such a great idea. Wish you the best. I don't think it's right for me. Good luck. And the other one is having somewhere to refer people to that is free and doesn't involve anything from you. So if somebody emails me for advice, I would say, Yeah, unfortunately, I can't help here. But here's an article on my website that might help or here's a group that I find really helpful,
Graham Allcott 43:27
you must get that loads, right, like so. Because I suppose having written 13 books, and you've written 13 books that are about parenting, and so often, when people are reading your books, they're at a very transitional, very stressful emotional time in their lives, and your voice is guiding them through. So you must get quite a lot of people sort of like reaching out to you and sort of, you know, wanting advice wanting help, or that sort of thing. Is that, is that difficult to deal with is is that overwhelming?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 44:03
So it's saying no, but having those boundaries put up in advance. So I would say I get maybe three or four emails every day, asking for help. And I have put on my website on the contact page, they have to contact me through that I unfortunately, don't give free advice just because simply the sheer amount of them. Some people ignore that, and I think try anyway, but then I do say on my website in advance. Please note, if you do email list, you won't receive a reply. So do just delete them. On Instagram, I get probably 50 to 100 messages every day. That's just on Instagram. Wow, I turned my messaging off on my Facebook page, because that would be the same. So I again set boundaries I do every normally Monday or Tuesday I'll go on my stories and take live questions for a couple of hours. So I can't answer everybody even just to say no, I'd literally have spent two hours every day just saying sorry. I can't do this. So I do again, I have to delete. It's difficult because I work in a helping profession, you know, my whole work, helping people and I, I do really want to help people, but I just can't do it. And I also know that if I helped everybody, I'd have no time for myself, which means my children would suffer, and actually be able to write the books or help people because I just be constantly ill. Yeah, no,
Graham Allcott 45:23
see, that'd be nice. Yeah, I mean, man, I thought I got a lot of emails from people asking for help sorting out their inboxes. But yeah, 100 messages a day. That's like, I'm starting to Yeah, I don't know what
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 45:39
I mean, what do you do with that? I just, I can't sometimes I just literally just tick them all in bulk, delete them, because they made me stressed seeing them. I don't know. I think it's just the having a boundaries that look, I'd love to help people, I just can't, here is this opportunity that I do every week. And when I do my live questions and answers I get, probably get through about 20 or 30 questions, and I reckon I get two to 300 submitted. So again, there's a lot that I ignore, but I just I can't do more.
Graham Allcott 46:07
But that's a good way of doing it, like batching up those questions. And then you know, just hop on and be there live and be part of that. And the last thing I wanted to ask you about was so you mentioned before about identity, and you were saying that, you know you had this career, and then you ditch the career to become a working mom and start writing books. And, and there's a loss of identity there. Now your kids are in the teenage phase, there's going to come a point in the not too distant future where you're no longer like, you know, really sort of connected to people who are just about to have their baby for the first time. So is that something that you're thinking about? Are you worried about this sort of loss of identity once your kids fly the nest?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 46:54
Yeah, I don't think worried. I think if you look at the books I've written, there's a natural trajectory there. Like my first book was about babies, and it was about toddlers. So as my children grow, my books change. So my book before this one was about tween ages. So I wrote about 18 to 18, eight to 13 year olds. Next time I read it, when I do write one, which is not this year, will be about 13 to 21 year olds. And then at the back of my mind, I've got what I'd love to write one day is a book for first time grandparents. My eldest notice is almost 20. So I'm hoping I've got 10 years before that one, but that's at the back of my mind. So yeah, I kind of like it naturally grows. And then what I do now sort of talking about parents feelings, it doesn't matter if you're talking to somebody with a newborn, or somebody with a 13 year old child. I think it applies to everyone. But yeah, no, I think it just naturally evolves, doesn't it and you don't realise you've evolved until you look back and think, ah, have actually really changed.
Graham Allcott 47:53
Yeah, I interviewed a while ago, I interviewed Katie Thistleton, who's a DJ on Radio One. But she started life as a kids TV presenter on the broom cupboard on BBC. And then she went to Radio One. And now she's doing sort of like, like study skills and documentaries and stuff. And so she's sort of in the same in the same way that you, you know, presumably, you've got people who read your first like book about babies, and they've kind of followed up with me. Yeah. And so Katie's had that as well, where, you know, she had these eight year old kids that have then become 10 and 15. And, you know, and now they're sort of 18, or whatever. And you can see her sort of transitioning with that same audience into sort of like adult documentaries, and, you know, sort of more sort of hybrid content. It's lovely.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 48:39
I think people think that I've had a career plan, and I really haven't, like, my whole career has been an accident, or just happened naturally. But it is it is really lovely to grow up with the people and even back to sort of in the early 2000s, when I was teaching parents antenatal classes and being with their babies and those babies and are at university is, yeah, it's it's actually really nice, I think to move with your audience.
Graham Allcott 49:04
Yeah, absolutely. And then I suppose I suppose my final question is, like, just thinking about productivity within all of that. So it seems like you don't have a seems like you're good at saying no, and you're pretty prolific. Have you got any, any tips or things that particularly work for you around like, being productive and getting stuff done?
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 49:26
I set times and I write so many notes to myself, like bullet point lists. I really love lists, like I have lists everywhere. I mean, everywhere, stick into a list and ticking it off and then I just really like the thrill of like deleting it when it's done. That really helps me but also I I didn't you know, I've been self employed for 20 years now and I would work at every hour if there was work because you're scared of turning work away, aren't you but now I really very much will only work mostly between like 9am and 3pm. Am and having that time when I don't do anything in the evenings. I mean, that's still be like on social media or something, but I won't deal with clients in the evening that really helps to have that time away.
Graham Allcott 50:14
Productivity is about doing less. It really is. For sure. Sarah, thank you so much for being on beyond busy with us. So I'm, I used to say to people, where can they connect with you? And you can tell us where people can get, you know, connection and advice from you and where not to send it.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 50:34
Not to send please, please, no private messages. So, yeah, I'm kind of like this is I probably need to take actually my own advice and do less. But I am on literally every social media platform. Just as my name so Seroquel Smith, apart from Twitter, where I am the baby expert, which I hate. And it was a tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek top choice about 10 years ago, but then I got verified, and you can't change your name when you're verified. Otherwise, you need to verify status.
Graham Allcott 51:03
So you got no blue tick, I
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 51:04
hate it. But I am the baby expert. And please know that I'm not being serious when I write up. And just then just Yeah, literally every social media platform is Sarah Smith.
Graham Allcott 51:15
Amazing. And the book is how to be a calm parent. And thank you so much for being here.
Sarah Ockwell-Smith 51:19
Thank you for having me.
Graham Allcott 51:21
So you go Sarah Ockwell-Smith. And just as we're finishing up at the end of our conversation, we stopped recording and then a couple of things just suddenly popped into my head just around my own parenting dilemmas. And it was just really nice to be able to get a bit of kind of one on one free consultancy from someone who just knows about this stuff. So yeah, really good to talk to Sarah, if I'd had those ideas earlier, I would have just shared them on the podcast, and then you would have got an insight into some of my parenting dilemmas as well. But yeah, it just sort of fell out right at the end of the episode after I pressed stop. So there you go. Sorry about that.
But yeah, really nice to have Sarah on the podcast. And it's just one of the real sort of thrills of doing this is just being able to talk to such a wide range of thoughtful people, and people who spend a lot of time thinking about one subject or one thing. So yeah, if you've got anyone in mind who you think would make a good guest for beyond busy, then just drop me a line. It's Graham at think productive.co.uk always keen stick guests. And as you probably noticed, over the last few months, I've been doing more episodes that have involved people with books. And so I'm starting to just formulate some ideas around how I can turn that into maybe more of a book club type of model. So watch this space on that. It's just a sort of early idea that I've been sort of playing around with a couple of people here and yeah, people that think productive, and Emilie, my assistant and quite keen on the idea. So we will explore that a bit more. So yeah, watch this space sometime in the future. The grey market, Book Club podcast or something, may well be a bit of a springboard thing out of all of this. So if that sounds interesting, yeah, drop me a line Graham at think productive.co. UK, if you're not on my weekly email, then it's called Rev Up for the Week. And every Sunday, I say I send out a free email with something productive or positive for the week ahead. It goes out of four or five UK time on a Sunday evening. So you can read it, either on a Sunday evening, as you're prepping for the week or on Monday morning as you're on your way into work or just booting up the laptop or whatever. So yeah, if you want to sign up for that, it's just if you go to Graham allcott.com, you can sign up on any of the pages there. And also if you go to grey hawk.com forward slash links, then that will give you everything that I'm doing basically. So if you want to find out a bit more about what I'm up to Grahamallcott.com/links as ever. The podcast is sponsored by Think Productive if you are interested in bringing us in to help your team to make space what matters to boost productivity and well being give us a shout. Just think productive.com And you'll find your nearest productive office around the world. And that's it for this week. All the show notes, links to everything we've talked about. You can find that at get beyond busy.com. And it's also at Graham allcott.com/podcast. We'll be back in two weeks time really inspiring one coming up in two weeks. We've got a guy called Dave Linton who is the founder of a social enterprise called Mad Lug and so lots of inspiration coming up in two weeks. If you're not subscribed, please do and we'll see you then in two weeks time until then, take care bye for now.
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