Mental Health at Work, with James Routledge
My guest today is James Routledge. James is a mental health advocate and author of the book Mental Health at Work. After burning out 24, when his first business failed, he founded Sanctus, who are on a mission to help companies invest in the mental health of their employees.
In this episode, James talks openly about his experiences, we cover some of the myths of mental health, how to manage boundaries, and how to question some of the conventional narratives on mental health. It's a really important conversation. This is James Routledge.
I'm with James Routledge. How are you?
James Routledge 1:18
Hey, Graham.
Graham Allcott 1:18
Yeah, really nice to have you on. Let's start by just talking about your story. What I really want to focus on in this conversation is mental health and your stories really interesting. And I saw it written down somewhere that you basically described, your early career is burned out at 24. And you were running a business at the time. So do you want to just describe the the lead ups that burnout and what What did that feel like for you?
James Routledge 1:50
Yeah, I went to university, Noreen to Enlai, many people in the UK, mainly because I didn't know what else I wanted to do. At that age and university was the next obvious stepping stone. I've had a URL, done some travelling and picked up pretty vanilla course history and politics just because, and was quickly quite bored that university and wasn't stimulated, intellectually, or academically or emotionally, you're stimulated at all really, other than going out and having a good time with my mates, which I very much enjoyed. And really fell into the world of startups and entrepreneurship, I got very excited by the idea of, or the possibility of building my own company that could, you know, create a life for myself, I could create wealth for myself, I could create a certain amount of freedom for myself. And I remember another entrepreneur that I followed on social media at this point, putting a photo up of them in Bali, with their laptop, looking out into a beach and yeah, image just epitomised freedom for me, and I remember very much wanting that. So kind of, yes, set out to try and build that really. So it was it was quiet. It was now even in some respects going on that going on that sort of very early startup journey and wanting to build my own business there was some parts of those motivations which were quite pure in terms of wanting freedom and wanting something else that kind of wasn't the corporate world a lot of my friends are starting to look at graduate grad schemes and working for big banks or big accountancy firms or big law firms yet there was another part of that pursuit which was what I describe as ego fueled really wanting to you know, feel or look special or look cool or look interesting amongst my peers or been able to make money or create a status for myself and really that probably took over in the ends I you know, the business that I started with my friends George from university was was quite shallow there was no real purpose to the business it was a it was a social network for life sport there was no real attachment or passion there it was. It was just something to do and then I landed in this culture this startup culture which was all all go yeah now work hard play hard hustle hard move fast and break things yeah kind of been young and impressionable very much bought into that as well. That's how we succeed we persevere we push we stick our chest out we we blank we you know you fake it till you make it all this kind of dragons then yeah, friends. Yes, kind of culture. And yeah, the end At the other day, as a result, I had nothing left like I expended all of myself trying to pursue something that Yeah, it wasn't kind of wasn't even really what I wanted in the end. Yeah, wound feeling one feeling very stressed and very anxious.
Graham Allcott 5:18
Yeah. And how much of the that burning out do you think was? You know, so obviously, you've got a motivation to try and improve yourself to try and build a business. As soon as you've got a business partner, and you've got investors, you've got other people that you want to show up for, and please and get everything right for. And then also, you mentioned that idea of the hustle culture. Like, I'm just really curious about how much you think that, you know, that idea of hustling hard? And if it's not working, just work harder? How much? How much of that external influence was sort of playing into you reaching burnout?
James Routledge 5:56
Yeah, a lot. I would say, I think if there was a, if there's a balance of what was my own input into that burnout, I'd say it was probably 30 40%. And the rest was was kind of systemic, I think, and me, attaching myself to that mindset of, you know, looking around, or the role models I saw. And, yeah, they all seem to work in like 7080 hour weeks, they seem to never switch off. And so I thought that was the way I needed to be. And again, in the end, I think there's an, you know, I've been burned out multiple times in my life, like I wouldn't claim to serve only felt what I would describe as burnout. Once I think I had one major episode of feeling completely burned out and exhausted and kind of really, really feeling like I needed to run away as a result of it. But often, for me, when I feel burned out, it's, it's also it's not just that I'm physically tired from the value, and quantity of tasks or work I'm doing, it's often because I'm not, I'm not being filled up, but there's no fuel. And I think, actually, for me, you know, in that first business, it wasn't so much that I was physically exhausted from the sheer volume of work. It was because I was running on empty ly, there was no purpose that was I didn't know, fueling me every day.
Graham Allcott 7:23
And then I guess it's a bit of a cliche, isn't it for, you know, you hear a lot from, you know, sort of entrepreneurial influences and people who were talking about not just entrepreneurship, but work as well that find work that fits your purpose. And I guess, that idea of having working on the thing that, you know, can you you can expend energy on it, but it's also filling you up. And that being a virtuous circle. That's why that's so important, isn't it? Like, if you're spending all of your time working on something that doesn't feel like it has a purpose, then I suppose the flip side of that is you've got to spend also a lot of time filling yourself up somewhere else, and kind of convincing yourself that it's the right thing to just be spending time. Yeah, I
James Routledge 8:05
mean, in my experience, there are there are lots of different places that I can restore my energy. And my, and I, my cup might be filled from the sheer joy of what I'm working on, because it's so purposeful for me. Obviously, also, I can feel rested and restored through rest. Yeah. Resting. So I think there are multiple, like multiple facets to it. But yeah, I think that's, you know, personally, for me, that's why doing work that I find purposeful and meaningful is really important to me, because I know, I probably going to put a lot of myself into my work and that way inclined. So it's kind of got to be worth it. And that will give me the energy to keep
Graham Allcott 8:50
going. Yeah, and you've been, you know, really, I think what's interesting about the book, which we'll come on to, but also just the way you put yourself out there online, it's like you're really open about your own mental health. So is that like, always a really conscious thing for you? And you started a blog around it? Like, what was the what was the motivation to really, like, talk about it and, and have that conversation initially?
James Routledge 9:15
Well, I didn't for so long. That so that's probably the first thing I definitely didn't grow up, being open about how I felt or articulating my emotions. So all the way up until that that major, so sort of burnout and, you know, I was on Sky News yesterday, and the guy called a breakdown, whatever you want to call them, you know, up until that point has never articulated or talked about how I felt I didn't think I'd ever been vulnerable really, I don't think I'd ever named an emotion. I don't think I was really in touch with our emotions, feelings of sadness or anger, all the way possibly to feelings of joy and and sort of hopefulness. So Have you never really done it? So I suppose to me now, I've experience the power and the transformational change of taking the time to become aware of how I'm feeling, articulate it and share it with others. And then through coaching, for example, therapy, working through some of those things, if needed to, and I've seen the benefit of that. And, you know, it's been, it's been a complete, it's changed the course of my life and taken my life in directions that I would never have expected, I would never have expected to have written a book on mental health. That was never something that was on my radar, it was never something I felt like was laid out in front of me. Yeah. Because of that exploratory process of articulating how you feel. I find that working in that way opens up lots of paths in your life that you may not partake in may not have typically been aware, aware out there for you.
Graham Allcott 11:06
Yeah, and, you know, we're both, you know, white males, both from the Midlands as well. There's, there's a line you have about steak, which is something like it's the last bastion of Northern machismo or something, which I really liked. But why do you think some people do find it much harder to talk about emotions? You know, I'm, I'm with you on the, you know, I see the value of coaching and therapy in my own life. But there are an awful lot people, you know, in our position, particularly men, actually, who just don't, who don't open up or talk about that stuff or find it really difficult to be vulnerable. Like, why why do you think that is a very complex
James Routledge 11:49
issue, isn't it with lots of sort of intersectionality. And you know, you've already you've just mentioned, and I write about this in the book, and it was one of my first white one star reviews, which was, which was quite enjoyable. If me saying, Look, I am in the privileged position where I'm a white man. So actually, when I talk about my mental health, I often get a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you, James, thank you for saying something that we're all struggling to say thank you for giving others that permission to do so. Now, perhaps, and I'm in the startup world, right? So I work in the startup environment, typically open minded, typically quite progressive. Now, let's say or not, why mine work in the startup environment, and someone somewhere else, me talking about my mental health or how I feel could could mean me losing my job. So there's a real privilege for me there, that I'm well aware of. And I think fundamentally, though, whoever and wherever you are, the reason we don't open up is because we don't feel safe, or we don't feel comfortable to and often that is through fear of judgement, or fear of dismissal. And when I say dismissal, I don't just mean being dismissed from your job. That's one one way, I mean, just dismissal of have not been met, as like someone you know, you saying something really important for you to someone? And, you know, just goes completely over their head? It's hard you want to never BMA you know, I think that's also the the rest is always a risk and being vulnerable, never gets easier. So being vulnerable for you might be saying, you know, I'm depressed, or being vulnerable might be, you know, I don't like my job. There's all these all these different ways in which we might want to share and express how we're feeling. So I think fundamentally for whoever you are, whatever your gender, your ethnic background, your sexual orientation, whatever it wants, you know, wherever, whoever you are, and really the risk and ever share in how you feel and open up is the risk of being judged and not being kind of really seen for what you're saying.
Graham Allcott 14:12
And so you're on a mission around mental health. And so we're going to talk in a minute about mental health at work, but your company as well. Sanctus is doing some incredible stuff in this whole space as well. Do you want to tell us what Sanctus is and like what it does, and just just tell us the story,
James Routledge 14:30
when I first started experiencing the benefit of sharing my story and be more open about how I was feeling I felt like this whole world opened up in front of me as feelings and emotions in this kind of like self development world and this, you know, my inner psychology and everything. And I started working with a coach initially to begin that exploration and begin some of that work and just saw the humongous benefit In, proactively taken time to talk through and work through and process some of the challenges in my life. So five years ago, those challenges were, you know, shut down a company, I feel really embarrassed, I feel really good about it. I'm heartbroken. What do I do next? Where do I go? Who am I now, and working with a coach really helped me to move through some of those questions and make some changes in my life and kind of grow up and call just grow. And Sanctus was born out of the desire to, I suppose, offer the experiences that I'd been having to more and more people. So we started a mission to inspire people to work on their mental health, like we do our physical health and practically support that through providing coaching in workplaces, they will partner with a workplace. And employees in that company will be able to access Sanctus coaching, which is a space impartial, confidential space for them to work with a coach on any of these thresholds or challenges in their life. And it's a very unique space that is rare in our society today, where you can bring your doubts, your fears, your hopes, your longings, it's not a conversation with a mate down the pub, it's not a conversation with your mom on the phone. It's not a conversation with your manager, it's a conversation with a coach who's there literally just to support you. So it's a really, it can be a really life changing products and a really unique products. And, yeah, we work with about 100 Different businesses right now. And we just raised raised a decent amount of investment to scale that and do more. So I bought an all born out of my experience, really, and then the experience of others. As I shared my story, I met other people that resonated and we grew a community and a team of people that are all on the same mission,
Graham Allcott 16:54
I'm guessing the answer is good, but just describe the difference in the feeling with I'm now working on something that has a real purpose to it. And you know, as opposed to what you had before that must feel good. Like I'm
James Routledge 17:07
imagining, yeah, much better and much more sustainable. You know, it's, you can keep pushing, I think that, you know, don't get me wrong, like you can push and push and push and push and you can push through, even when you're not loving something, you know, we're all very capable to persevere. Yeah, it's very hard. And, you know, can result in, in burning out or blowing up or whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, working on something that I'm innately motivated by for myself, there's that selfish desire of like, I want to solve this problem for me. And then there's the, the feeling of contribution, the feeling of contributing to the world in a, in an impactful way, and actually just having some, like meaningful change on people and on the world. You know, we've got a feedback space where anyone on the team can go in and look at some of the most recent feedback from people who've had Sanctus coaching sessions, and it makes the heart swell every time it's, it's real people, you know, who've had real moments of connection in their day, with themselves and with someone else. And yeah, and that feels that feels really good. I think the honest truth, though, that, you know, a lot of people who work in kind of vocational spaces might not admit is that there's a dark side to it as well. There's a, there's a shadow side of, of, you know, working on something that feels very noble, because there can be a feeling of never enough, it's like, no one company Sanctus one person me cannot, cannot solve the global mental health crisis. And nor can we, nor can we provide coaching to 7 billion people on the planet, we can give it a good girl. So that becomes other stories, I think that come into your head about why you can't stop or why you can't switch off. You know, we need to do more. We can never say no. Because someone always needs help. So yeah, there's it's not all it's not all. It's not all roses.
Graham Allcott 19:19
Yeah, like I've got a few friends who work in, you know, charity organisations or social work and that sort of feeling of, like compassion fatigue, isn't it where it's like, I feel like I need to give, give give because me taking the night off and me working on my own rest and recuperation is probably at the expense of someone in a much worse situation and the guilt of that. Yes. Huge, really huge issue for a lot of people. And I think in what I've observed from a couple of people in social work is that you kind of end up you get covered The different types of social worker, you get the ones who are very heart driven. And if they don't, like really look after themselves, and make that a really big priority, they just burn out repeatedly. Or you get the ones who actually, their way of coping with it is to go the other way, and to just become procedure driven. And so, you know, you almost have to put, if I'm following the rules, I'm doing what I'm told. So I don't invest as much emotionally than that's like the other way to, to survive it. But I do think there's something yeah, there is that dark side isn't there to to work with purpose? Yeah, like, I like that terminology. Let's talk a little bit about the book. So mental health at work, part of the the penguin business experts series. And what I really liked in the book, there's a couple of things that I wanted to talk about. One was the mental health myths that you talked about in the book. So do you want to talk about some of the myths of mental health?
James Routledge 20:58
Yeah, see if I can remember that.
Graham Allcott 21:01
If you want to, if you want me to, no,
James Routledge 21:03
that was a really, it was a really important section of the book for me and, and, you know, working in the mental health space for the last five years, and going from someone who had no idea what mental health was, that was one of the first things I talked by in the book is like, you know, my expertise is literally just my expertise, that that's what makes me credible. Yeah, I, I am you I am the reader. I, you know, I know what it feels like to be scared and confused, and not really understand these big feelings and not know how it's going to be received when I talk to someone in a work environment, but also wanting something to be different at the same time and all those conflicting emotions. And I've just found over the years, there are some there were just some sort of like platitudes about mental health that are just great misconceptions. Like, they've they've grown and grown over the year, over the years, whether it's through media, culture, film, TV, you know, whatever it might be, and they're just plain wrong. You know, there's just some stuff that's just like, plain wrong down to one of the things I talk about often is the language around mental health someone else. Someone, someone will, like, just use the wrong, like, they'll just say words that make no sense like, oh, yeah, he had someone say something like, oh, he has mental health. Yeah, he does. We all do. Yeah, you know, I this, basically the thing, the biggest misconception that we still have to work really hard to kind of transition away from is that mental health is mental illness. And mental health is not mental illness, mental ill health is one part of mental health, which is one part of health. So, you know, mental health is the full is our full range of emotion. It's, it's all of who we are not just our suffering, or depression or anxiety or suicidal thoughts, for example, which you might class on, on one end of a spectrum of mental health. And I think then the other big one, if that's one of the biggest, the other big one that I write about and talk to, is that, I mean, again, this sentence makes no sense is that mental health is weakness. Yeah. Again, from a language perspective, that sentence makes no sense. It's nonsense. You know, we all have mental health. So does that mean we're all weak? Maybe it does at times. But I think there's this great conception or misconception that when we are to be vulnerable, or to talk about how we feel, in any capacity, that is a sign of weakness. And I think that's born out of born out of the Industrial Revolution, that for that feeling was probably again 200 years ago. And, you know, we're here in 2022. And we're still living from that place when the world is so different. And, and actually, time and time and time again, do we all see that when we see someone, share something, be vulnerable, be honest, it's a sign of strength, not weakness? You know, how many times do we see a sports person cry or a great leader or act or a musician sort of really saved something from the heart and we applaud them and we're really thankful for it. So same in workplaces. You know, I've seen CEOs stand up in front of their team and talk about the darkest times in their life and their employees love them for it and respect for it. So I think this whole vulnerability is weakness. Line is happies is dying and has to die and that's one of the big misconceptions around mental health,
Graham Allcott 25:02
it's a really hard one, particularly when you're in, like a leadership role or way, like where you've got people who are relying on you. And you know that that myth is out there. And you know, I've had it myself where I've had periods of depression. And generally, what's happened with that has been that Elena who's the MD of the business, I'll, I'll be really open with her. And I'll say, Hey, I'm just having one of those days, today, I'm just staying in bed, and I'll just stay in bed for a couple of days, basically. And then it will just kind of pass and then I'll sort of get back to normal, but the rest of the team, the rest of organisation kind of has no idea. And I don't, you know, and sort of, like, certainly years ago, when that was happening more, I was much more reluctant to talk about that, because it just felt like when you're in that position, where people's confidence in your business depends on their confidence in you. You have to, you know, really kind of, you have to kind of articulate yourself as someone who is not weak and is in control and is able to deal with stuff and is resilient and like those things, almost become a reflection of the confidence of the business, don't they? So what do you say to that, like, if people are in roles where, you know, you, let's say you've got 20 people that really rely on you. And yeah, you want to be vulnerable, but there's a chance that your vulnerability makes other people feel vulnerable to it's really difficult when
James Routledge 26:34
I challenged some of it, to be honest. You know, I think, again, I talked about it, you know, a few few moments ago about feeling safe, so open up about something, and the fear of judgement. And if you are a CEO, or if you are in a leadership role, there, there can be a big fear of judgement, right? I fear the judgement of my team there, they're going to think I can't do this, they're not going to trust me, they don't want to work for me, they're going to be scared their jobs under threat because, you know, the business is falling apart, because I'm falling apart. And look, I've been there. I'm not, I'm not. I'm no saint in this, because I felt very much like that. Run in Sanctus. Yeah, it's not always true. And I think it often paints a picture of employees in a certain way, to be honest, it often paints a picture of the employee of saying, well, they're not going to be able to handle it, if I tell them that I'm struggling, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna freak out. That may be true, that that may not. So I'm not doubting that for any leader is extreme, it can feel extremely hard to show any form of vulnerability to you know, your team, even to the extent of saying something like, I don't know, you know, as a leader, if you get asked what we should do. You know, you always feel like or you might always feel like you need to give an answer or a sense of direction. And the honest thing might be anger a clue. Yeah. And that can feel really difficult. I think for I think I'd challenge any leader to reflect on how true the statement is, initially. And just because I think they can just be a quiet instance, on our can't do that, you know, without really thinking well, what is it I feel like I can't do and why, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? It's that moment of reflection, I think, can be really helpful. I think then secondly, I think leaders have to have some support around them in places where you no one can be as they are on can be really vulnerable. And because then in those spaces, you might get the support that then gives you enough of an energy, enough resilience to confidently talk about how you are feeling or what might be going on. And that's also a choice as well, you know, not every leader has to start that start talking about their personal life or what's going on in front of their whole team, that that's a choice. And the reason I think we're talking about it, and I mentioned it is because we know now that leaders who show vulnerability and who do bring more of their humanity and their personality into their work, do create great trust with their teams. And it does work just from a practical leadership perspective. But in general, I do think there's a bit of a story we tell ourselves as CEOs or leaders or founders of weather that people won't take it. People can't take it if I tell them I'm struggling, they won't handle it. And yeah, I question that both for myself and for others that I actually do think people can take it. You know, they've heard probably heard worse in their life actually. And actually, if they hear their, you know, their managers say that they're struggling, it might actually give them permission to put their hand up and say, Me too.
Graham Allcott 30:09
Yeah, I've definitely found that easier in more recent years. And I suppose part of that is having sort of what the first time I talked about it with the team. It was it was a retrospective thing was like, this has already happened, you didn't really know about it. But here's what happened. And it almost felt like because I then told them a story that involved everything didn't fall off a cliff then did it. It sort of felt like it made it easier to talk about it in the moment a bit more. You know, when it's happened more recently, so yeah, I think you might be right there that, you know, sometimes, you know, I think sometimes just as people that loners, managers, entrepreneurs, or whatever labels, you know, just as people, we often just take on more than we need to, don't worry,
James Routledge 30:55
we're trying to promote people, which protect them. And that's a great thing, isn't it? It's, you know, it's like, I remember when I was first struggling, my mom was like, Why did you say anything? Right? And, and I didn't, I didn't tell, I wasn't scared of judgement from my mom. There's no way my mom would ever judge me. But I didn't want to, I didn't want to worry. And people say this all the time. And I think it's probably there's a lot of that in leadership, a lot of martyrdom, of like, I just don't want to worry. The other
Graham Allcott 31:23
thing from the book I wanted to talk about was you talk about boundaries. And it really made me think because I think sometimes the conversation around not just mental health, but just in general, the idea of psychological safety. The idea of, you know, making workplaces as inclusive as possible, all of this kind of leads us to a place where we have to be more open with emotions, we have to talk about empathy, more, there has to be more of a sense of vulnerability and some of those conversations and, you know, sometimes, I guess what can happen from that is you find yourself just out of your depth, and I loved your honesty in there of saying, like, I'm not a practitioner. There's some stuff that I don't know, if you're in a really dark place. And like, as your manager, it's not actually for me to sort of diagnose that or step into that. So that was just a really interesting thing that just stopped me in my tracks fit and made me think and so do you want to just talk a bit about boundaries? And how do you navigate that?
James Routledge 32:29
Yeah, we came up a lot for me when I first started to write about mental health. Because, straightaway, if I'm sharing my experience, I am naturally inviting people to connect with me. Yeah, right. If you write something on social media, that's what you're doing, you know, yeah, you're, you're open a comment for reaction. So there's naturally you know, there's BOUND bound, an issue of boundaries come up. And now look, I'll be honest, I've never heard of the word boundaries, as in playing cricket. Spend a bit, spend a bit of time with coaches or therapists or supervisors in the mental health space, anyone adequately trained and the word will come up. Because a boundary is there to keep you and the person you're in a conversation or relationship where it's safe. That boundary can be rules, a boundary can be a personal, and, you know, place of some way you can't stretch yourself beyond. So they're very important for keeping people safe and comfortable and protected in, in, especially in intimate conversations. And, for example, a boundary for me to be open about when writing the book is that I am not a practitioner, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a counsellor, I'm not a coach, I am James, who has had a set of experiences with mental health, and has built a mental health business, and I'm going to share those experiences. This book is not here, or designs for your healing or your growth. Yeah. And that was me really setting the stall out on who I am, what I can do, and what I can't do. Now, what that does, in that example, is it makes me feel much more comfortable about writing. So I wrote about some pretty, you know, pretty important stuff I write about suicide in the book, for example. And because of that framing, I felt able to write about suicide in the way that I've experienced it in the way that I know it, not presenting this and morsel truth and it also protects the reader or whoever you're having the conversation with, of knowing you know, what they're dealing with basically, and what they can come to you with. It's it's, it's incredibly important when we get into more intimate relationships in the workplace in particular, like man line managerial relationships, because the lines and the boundaries there can start to get really blurred, as you've just mentioned, if we as a workplace culture, inviting people to bring more of who they are, you know, we've, we're inviting people to bring their ethnicity, their sexual orientation, we're opening up spaces to talk about gender dynamics, or about mental health. You know, we're bringing in a lot of emotional information, a lot of, you know, personally sensitive stuff, and we've all got to be honest about our boundaries about where we can go to, you know, and, and where we feel comfortable, and where we are the right person to support someone. So you know, if you've got someone who you're managing who's coming to you, every single week, talking about how they can't get out of bed in the morning, and how they don't feel motivated for work, and you're their manager, or you're in HR, you can support that person, as a colleague, within the boundaries of your role. So you may be able to say, Okay, well, you know, could we be flexible about the times you start or look at your workload, or the projects you're working on, you, maybe could ask them a few open questions about what else is going on in their life. But if you get into what might feel like a sort of counselling or therapeutic conversation, where you're starting to unpack that person's feelings, or they're, they're sharing with you a lot of information about what's going on your life, there's a boundary issue there, you've crossed a boundary into a place that it's unlikely that you're qualified to be in because that's more of a
client type relationship is if you were a therapist. And I think the most important thing people can do is be really honest with themselves and with others, about where their boundaries are, you know, even saying something like, Look, I've never struggled with depression, before, I have no feelings towards it, like I've just not gotten there. I've not, you know, for people in my life that have struggled. So if someone's coming to me with that, I can say, Look, this isn't something I feel like I can help you with, that's a really great thing to say, because it's so clear. And then it opens up other opportunities for support for someone.
Graham Allcott 37:37
So the Brene Brown thing clear is kind unclear is unkind. And I suppose the other thing just to reflect on that is that often, like a colleague, you know, relationship, or a sort of, you know, line manager or relationship at work. I mean, it, they become friendships, don't they? And so we have to especially have the same issue, when friends of ours might come and you know, bring those kinds of, you know, that kind of data, and then it's like, your first instinct is always to try and help your friends, right and support your friends. So it can be really, I think, it can be really difficult sometimes to kind of know, like, where that boundary is and dislike, where where to draw some of those lines, right?
James Routledge 38:21
Yeah, I have it all the time. Like with my, with my partner, Sarah, she, you know, I might sort of slip slip into like asking her like some like coaching questions, I might say, I like what, they're telling me more about that. And she can rightly say, James, you know, go away, I don't know if I can swear. I want you to just be my boyfriend, like just be, you know, be you don't try and be something you're not. And that's ultimately what it is about boundaries be authentically you. And your remit of work, who you are and who you're not. And that's the best thing you can do when sort of advocating or, or creating a connection around mental health with someone.
Graham Allcott 39:03
Yeah, love that. The other thing I wanted to ask you about from the book was the story about octopus energy really struck me and I've had Greg, Greg Jackson on the podcast before as well. But I just think their culture is really remarkable in this whole idea of one of their values is just being straightforward, which just reading, you know, your writing and the way you put yourself out there, one of the things I love about it is just how just open your arms straight forward and like to the point you are with with a lot of that stuff. But the thing is like if we just work in a way that's going to out behave everybody else, and work in a way that is so focused on making sure that the customer feels really good at the end of interactions, then we will wind up to be the smartest we'll have to be the cheapest whatever. Like this is the way to win is to our behave. And to use this idea of being straightforward. Yeah, like I just love to hear your thoughts on octopus energy and like your experiences of working with them and what it's like, you know, kind of inside the organisation,
James Routledge 40:09
we actually don't work with octopus energy. We're with octopus group. So that switch group, but I'm kind of one in the same. They're the daddy octopus at the end of the day. We just don't work with that particular tentacle,
Graham Allcott 40:22
are they going to have a tentacles? Is that the idea?
James Routledge 40:25
I imagined? So yeah, sure. I never saw Simon, the founder would love to have eight. Yeah, they've already got eight octopus businesses, that would probably be the goal, I guess. Yeah, I mean, look, they're there. They've been a partner of Sanctis. For for a long time early advocate. Signing the founder and CEO has been a great sort of mentor to me, actually, on the Sanctus journey. And it was, it was quite striking for me talking not just to them, but to loads of different businesses about, you know, their approaches to mental health. As I was researching for the book, I wanted to speak to just kind of diverse businesses about their approach to mental health in the workplace, how, you know, how are you building an organisation where people can talk about mental health openly? And one of the one of the benefits of that, and how do you do it, and so many of the things people do, which is like, you know, frighteningly simple. And, and this, the whole thing with mental health in general, like, actually, a lot of the stuff we end up talking about is, is how to talk to each other, you know, how to listen, this is like, basic human behaviours that are, you know, desperately difficult to do. And octopus is a great example of, you know, their culture, about everything is guided by their values, one of their values as being straightforward, as you mentioned. So for them, it's quite a straightforward thing, that mental health impacts all of their employees, and all of their customers, and everyone. So let's invest in the mental health of our employees. And give them great benefit, great perks really look after them, so they can do their job really well, and then delight our customers. You know, it's, it's pretty basic. You know, it's not, it's not that complex. And the same with many, many, many businesses who've got, you know, positive cultures around how people can show up and how much of their humanity they can bring at work, it is often guided by some pretty straightforward principles.
Graham Allcott 42:45
Yeah. And I guess there's a sort of sense of care and generosity being something that if you, if you feel that from the culture that you're working in, you're much more likely to, you know, you're being in abundance mentality to then pass that on to customers to pass on to colleagues, you know, this stuff really perpetuates itself, doesn't it?
James Routledge 43:04
Yeah, exactly. Which, which tours? And you just said, it's so simple. So simple. Yeah, it's culture that stopped people. Seeing that, so, so obviously,
Graham Allcott 43:15
love it, we've just got a few minutes left, and we've not talked about productivity. So I'm going to finish up by asking about that. So I'd love to know, what you think the relationship is between productivity and mental health? And are there some things that you do around your own productivity that are very conscious of, of, you know, good mental health and, you know, having the right kind of work life balance. And so,
James Routledge 43:39
I mean, you know, if you're struggling with your mental health, you're probably not going to be productive. Although, having said that, there's probably a lot of people struggling with their mental health are extremely productive. And so it's not, it's not massively black and white. I, I think, productivity, you know, I'll be honest, I can have a bit of a can be a bit of a Marmite phrase to me. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 44:01
Yeah, me too.
James Routledge 44:03
The productivity will that have been, you know, they've been, it's all about, it's all about doing more, doing more faster, making more money, and it can be, it can be difficult for, for how you might feel you might feel like you're not doing enough, or you should be doing more which can be can be difficult feelings to sit with. And I think one of the things about a wider exploration of who you are, and just your mental health quite broadly, is that you know, you can really start to learn about yourself, not only what excites you, and what fills you up and where you feel purposeful. And obviously if you need to be productive around something, if it's something you love, you probably got more chance of being productive and getting stuff done. I think also though, through a thorough, deeper exploration of yourself, you can figure out you know, what, what supports you to work well, where you work best When you work best, what environmental conditions do you need to be in for you to work best? Do you need to be around people? Do you like working remotely? You know, what gives you energy? What doesn't? And so I think through an exploration of your mental health, I think you might rightly question what you're being productive on and what, what you value in your life and what you want to be working on. But I think you can definitely find out, yeah, what supports you to to be energised and to be to be kind of emotionally available to give yourself to whatever, whatever your tasks are? Personally, I'm not not really much of like a hacky, you know, like, people get very into this, like productivity hack. I've done all that. And, for me, it was just a bit too much like hard work, I think I found that, you know, it meant that it was all about just how much can I squeeze out of my day? And how much could I squeeze out of myself? And that, that wasn't a good feeling for me. And however, you know, I've I'd like to think I've done done a decent amount in my time on this earth. So So I clearly can be very productive. When I want to be I think, I think the things that helped me to be really productive, are, are really just when I want to do it, and it's such a boring answer, isn't it? It's so abstract, but you know, when I am really engaged in something, and when it really lights my fire, I just don't even think about it. I don't need to write a to do list, I don't need to talk to anyone about it. He just gets done. And it gets done very, very quickly. Because that's how I work. So for me, it's more about the emotional connections, my work, if I feel that, and I feel passionate, it just happens. And in terms of writing my book, that was quite a test of productivity. Because you know, you've got you've done it six times, I think you said, you know, you can be emotionally connected, but it's still a slog, oh yeah. It's still a slog, no matter how much I love it. And the real thing that changed the game there for me was was community actually. So I joined the writing community. And I logged on every morning, and I was in a silent virtual zoom library writing all this. And yeah, that was a massive game changer for me, in terms of being able to consistently produce, because there was the accountability, and there was also the sense of belonging. So yeah, I wouldn't have expected to say that, actually. But it made a real difference. For me, that's really
Graham Allcott 47:49
interesting. One, I've just sat there, as you're saying that and thinking, sometimes it's a slog, because you're emotionally invested, right? Where it's like, this just becomes this, you know, I want to say this in the best possible way. And like, I know that this gets printed on, you know, real paper that people are going to, you know, put on their shelf for years and years. And so it just becomes this thing that because you're so invested, it becomes harder to to do it. But yeah, I love that idea that through community, I guess, community shows you that the way to write is to run your hand along the keyboard, right. And then there's an awful lot of things that I do that I confuse the writing, but they don't actually involve running my hands on the keyboard and it's like, on some level, you have to kind of finish by by do that. So that's feels like a really good place because we're talking about the book to wind up so mental health at work, and how can people find out about Sanctus and connect with you and just share anything that you'd like to share before we finish
James Routledge 48:53
best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn. James Routledge on LinkedIn, you'll find me there I'm very active there. Little bit less active on Instagram at JD Routledge and then Sanctus is Sanctus on all platforms, so website sanctus.io. And then yeah, you find us again on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Graham Allcott 49:12
Brilliant. James, thank you so much for being on beyond busy. Cheers, Graham. This video is sponsored by think productive home of the productivity ninja. We help people in organisations to increase their impact and make space for what matters through a range of workshops, programmes and coaching. Head to think productive.com To find out more. Are you interested in booking me as a speaker for your event? You want to sign up for my Revit for the week email, you want to buy some of my books or do you just want to find out what I'm doing right now. It's all at Graham allcott.com forward slash links. And if you like this video, please like subscribe and share so we can make more. Thanks for watching.
So there you go, James Routledge. And yeah, James is just doing fascinating and really much nice work so I'm really happy to support James and everything that he's doing. Thanks to Penguin for helping us set that one up. And, to Pavel and Emilie, my amazing podcast team. And also thanks to Think Productive, our sponsors for the show. So if you would like help with helping your team to make space for what matters if you want to drive productivity, if you want to invest in work life balance, if you want to tackle problems, like too many meetings, too many emails, and so on, then drop us a line is think productive, calm, and from there, you can find your local think productive office, whether you're in the US, the UK, Western Europe, Australia, the Middle East, we can help you and we have people near you. So www.thinkproductive.com and you can find out lots more there. And other than that, just wanna say I hope you're well, I hope January is treating you well. It's been pretty cold here in the UK. But I've been out on the paddleboard on the sea, I've been writing as I record this, we're kind of 17 days into the new year. And I'm probably nearly that many words on my word count for the new book, which is all about Kindness in Leadership. So getting some words down and just feeling a bit more in the groove with the book than it was at the end of last year for various reasons, the book got kind of put on the backburner a bit. And it just feels really good to be back kind of in flow, picking that up, just reading a lot, writing a lot. And just immersing myself in the creative process of this book. So it's a long one, it feels like it feels like it's gonna be chunky and might need quite a big edit. So sorry, Celia, if you listen to this, it's a lot to edit. And but also, it feels like something that has a lot of energy around it. And it feels really important. It honestly feels like as I'm writing it, it feels like there's an urgency around what I'm writing. And I'm just really excited to share it with everyone. Obviously, it takes like a year, after I've written it before I can actually share it with people. But that's, that's just the nature of publishing and books and all of that. But it feels good to be back on the horse. And you know, really just enjoying the process. So that's where I'm at, as we sort of head into the latter part of January, as you listen to this. So hope you well I hope your year is off to a good start.
Every Sunday, I'm sending out this email, it's called Rev Up for the Week. And the idea is it's a positive or productive idea into your inbox, it's 4:05pm. UK time on a Sunday, it goes out and it's just one productive or positive idea for the week ahead. So if you're not signed up to that, if you just go to www.grahamallcott.com/links, and then you'll see a little button there for the wrap up for the week email on www.grahamallcott.com. You'll just find like little forms and stuff, which you can just fit in any of those and sign up for rev up for the week. And then the other thing I'm doing is a bit of speaking.
So if you're interested in bringing me into your company to speak, then Emilie deals with all of my speaking inquiries, you can get hold of her at emilie@grahamallcott.com. She's spelled E M I L I E. If you want to get me into your company to speak, I've got a couple of really good ones coming up actually, February, March, which I'm really looking forward to one with a new client I've not worked with before, and then one with client I've worked with a few times. So really looking forward to those and a couple of other things that are bubbling away. But really also just trying to keep myself locked down in the shed, if it's not the best kind of time of year to be writing a lot of words for the book, you know, it's cold, it's dark, and the mornings are dark. And it feels like the best time to just hunker down and get this book written. So that's what I'm doing as we start the year trying to reply to emails but not in the moment and just stay at the inbox and stay really in the zone with the writing which is going well so far. I'm enjoying it. I'm having a really nice, it feels like a gentle but very purposeful start to the year. So hope you're experiencing something similar. I hope you're having a good January and gearing up for if you're in my part of the world, the weather getting a bit warmer and moving into a bit of a different phase feels like it's coming. And it feels like it's it's much needed to so happy.
Well, we'll see you in two weeks time. We've got a really brilliant one in two weeks., actually. It's Sarah Stein Greenberg. She's written this amazing book, Creative Acts for Curious People. So it's all about creativity, lots of techniques, which you can use to help solve problems bring about innovation in whatever you are doing. It's brilliant! I've just been reading the book. It's yeah, it's a beautiful book. And I think you're going to really enjoy the conversation with Sarah. So that's until next time, we'll see you there. So until then take care bye for now.