Ready for Anything with Dr Samantha Boardman

Graham Allcott 0:07

This is beyond busy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books, including the global bestseller how to be a productivity ninja. And I'm the founder of think productive. We help people to make space for what matters and get more done. And we partner with some of the world's leading companies who share our mission to transform the world of work. Beyond busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work. My guest today is Dr. Samantha Boardman. Samantha is a clinical psychiatrist, as well as a medical doctor and has a master's in positive psychology. So her work joins the dots between all those different fields. And she's the founder of positive prescription.com. She's also the author of a new book ready for anything, how to build resilience and cope with daily stress. And so in this episode, we talked about resilience being on you how to create uplifts in your mood, and many other practical ways to deal with stress and be happier in your thinking. So I think you'll get a lot out of this episode. I really enjoyed this conversation. Let's dive right in. This is Dr. Samantha Boardman with Dr. Samantha Boardman, how are you doing? I'm well, how are you? Yeah, really good. And your your early morning in the states and I'm early afternoon. Here in the UK. Where are you at? on the east coast of the states there right now with normality vs COVID.

Dr Samantha Boardman 1:49

I'm personally on Long Island right now. And New York City is feeling a lot better.

Graham Allcott 1:55

So let's talk about your work. Because what's really interesting about what you do is that your background is in psychiatry. And then you also have this, this kind of secondary part of the second part of what you do and applied positive psychology. So what was the journey there? And do you want to just give a bit more of the background of how you got into do what you do? what's what's been your kind of career story so far,

Dr Samantha Boardman 2:21

I went to medical school and you know, you study everything from, you know, GYN to surgery to dermatology. And I went into psychiatry, I really like the sort of collision of science and the humanities. And what you do in all aspects of medicine is kind of trying to figure out what's, what's wrong. What's the problem, what's the symptom, and you focus on a patient's chief complaint, if they have abdominal pain or a headache, psychiatry, it's the same same idea, you focus on their symptoms, and I got really good at kind of figuring out pretty quickly what was going on, and then how I could treat them. And it was something that, you know, I was able to sort of hone in on the issue, and then make it a little bit less bad. And, you know, I always thought I got I got really good at misery. And about it was about 10 years ago, I was seeing a patient who was this maybe shouldn't qualify for a full sort of diagnosis of depression. But she wasn't, she wasn't thriving. She wasn't feeling great. She was having issues with her husband, she had three kids, she was exhausted by at home. And we were trying to minimise a conflict with the with her spouse, we were trying to help her have less issues with her brother in law and her kids. And one day she came into my office, I've been seeing her for about six weeks. And she said, You know what, sometimes I just dread coming here. All we do is talk about what's wrong in my life. And even sometimes I'm having a good day. And I have to think what can I complain about? And it makes me feel worse, and you know what I'm done. And it was this weird sort of wake up call to me that I had been so laser focused on everything that wasn't, you know, on her symptoms, on her issues on her problems on her chief complaint, and everything sort of radiated out from from that, that I wasn't focusing at all and I actually hadn't been trained to focus on what actually sort of promotes well being even could I help her within some of these issues, find strength within her stress and find sort of meaning within the madness of her everyday life. And that got me to go back to school and I and to study applied positive psychology that was the opposite of everything one learns in medical school and residency in psychiatry. And it's really the the study of, of health and well being and what are the factors that promote that and in trying to now I really might think of myself as a positive psychiatrist and that I really try to ameliorate symptoms, but I'll So how can I sort of promote well being, and they're not mutually exclusive, and the idea of well being being icing on the cake, oh, let's just get somebody to feel a little bit better. And then you can talk about that other stuff. And I think you can, these can really go hand in hand.

Graham Allcott 5:13

Yeah, or the other way around, right? where it's like, let's zone in on the thing that's broken, and then use that well being stuff to fix it. Whereas actually, there's a, there's a much bigger application for positive psychology and wellbeing.

Dr Samantha Boardman 5:27

Absolutely. And, you know, they're not even sometimes you can get rid of like, that's maybe the stress in someone's life, or what's really like the specific thing that's bothering them. But that doesn't mean you have somebody who's feeling really strong, or that they're thriving either. And to really sort of help them tap into their own strengths and live with their goals in mind. And that's become something really critically important to me. And I think something we've really seen in the pandemic, like a lot of people, the things that made them unhappy, maybe it was their commute or interacting with a difficult boss, there was less of that. But there was also less of the things that made them happy. There was also you know, less interaction, you know, connection with loved ones, that kind of thing. So these aren't just sort of getting, getting rid of some times that the, you know, presenting issues or problems isn't necessarily going to sort of unleash or unlock well being. And I think psychiatrists really have a responsibility to, to really, you know, embrace both.

Graham Allcott 6:26

Before we talk about the book. And I know, it's really hard to generalise, but it feels like just a moment in time as we as we sort of come out of the pandemic. I'd just love to hear more of your thoughts about what you think some of the collective experiences have been around that, what have you noticed, you know, both with your psychiatrist hat on, and also with your positive psychology hats on as well, like, what do you think are the big things that we'll take away from it?

Dr Samantha Boardman 6:50

You know, the big question is sort of what will we keep? You know, I think there's no, there's no cream, you know, there's no going back. And I think there is a sense of, you know, even the moment we start asking, what are we, you know, when will things even go back to normal, we're assuming that there will be a going back, and I think we're all dramatically changed by what has happened to us. And there's been a, you know, there's been individual trauma, there's been, you know, loss has been this recurring theme of loss of loved ones, you know, and then loss and more ambiguous ways of just routine of corner, bookstores like things that you people really sort of were connected to. And there's a variety of responses to loss, right. And trauma, you could have somebody who has post traumatic stress, or you can even have sort of languishing and those are at the spectrum of more serious, you know, sort of afflictions, but then the most common response to stress is resilience, you know, that that is something maybe we don't talk about enough. And then we'll see some people who have post traumatic growth, where they have this deepening, that they they'll say their relationships are deeper, and they feel they've developed new strengths that they see new, have new priorities and possibilities. And so what can we take? or what have we learned and integrate it and move forward with that in our post pandemic world? And, you know, I think we're gonna have to be really deliberate about that going forward. And a friend of mine had said, well, being through locked down, we essentially were forced to go on the equivalent of a food elimination diet, but it was a social elimination diet, we sort of were forced to cut out everything. Let's only add back in the ones that make you feel strong. You know, and I think there is some real sort of truth to that, how are we going to connect again, with others and we know from research that the the the interactions, the social interactions, we have the ones that are, give us the biggest boost are having a meaningful conversation, number one, and number two, the experience of felt love that you're understood that you're cared about the responded to? How do we bring that back deliberately into our everyday life, kind

Graham Allcott 9:08

of feeling like I want to hook on to a few those things, but I'm also really keen to get into the book. So I'm just going to dive into the book, which is, which is good ready for anything? How to build resilience and cope with daily stress? So let's talk about that, first of all, so you were talking there about the fact that a very common response to stress is resilience, and there is the sense that, you know, actually, by being tested, then we grow. But like, let's just flip that for a second and just think about things that do cause a stress. And what can people do to to eliminate some of those stresses or to live a life with with less stress?

Dr Samantha Boardman 9:46

what really got me interested in this question was, you know, we see after sort of bigger traumas loss, you know, really inflection points that people tend to be resilient. Yeah. You know, certainly there's a lot of free About that, that during the Blitz in London, that, you know, they I think they opened up these asylums, assuming that there would be sort of mass trauma and that people would really have these mental breakdowns as the way they were described at the time, and then they went unused. Maybe there's other reasons for that a lot of sort of social support around that strong leadership. But what fascinated me was that, yes, people like resilience is the default, actually, and that people tend to be resilient, but not for everyday things, the everyday hassles are really what build up, they accumulate. And that's what gets us down. And maybe it's, you know, it might have something to do with it with the lack of social support, we don't know, you know, nobody's going to bring you a casserole because you couldn't find a parking spot, you know. So it's this accumulation of everyday things that I think really build up and take the biggest toll on our physical and our mental health. And this can affect how it can affect our immunity, how we respond even to a vaccine, it can affect, then also our mental health. And when we accumulate lots and lots of hassles every day, they're much more likely to you know, be in conflict with our colleagues and our our loved ones. And we're just, you know, it's sort of when you just feel like you're languishing and just kind of getting by in a way, and what buffer is that is uplift. And if you can kind of create the scaffolding around you of what actually makes you feel strong. And sometimes it's almost counterintuitive. And that, you know, sometimes the elite, the thing you least feel like doing is the one that's actually going to provide the greatest boost and help you manage those hassles because hassles aren't really hassles, it's your perception of them, right? So you're less likely to perceive something because there's a lot of stuff we can't control, you know what you can't control. And York, it's the subway or for you guys to tube, if it's going to be late, there's a lot of stress we can never get rid of. So how do we feel strong in the face of it. And by having those by I really see three primary ways that sort of uplift function in our lives. It's when we feel like we're connecting deeply with others somehow. And it's when we are feeling that we're contributing to something beyond ourselves. And it's also when we're challenging ourselves in a good way that we're sort of stretching ourselves learning something new. And those are often the the I think the actions we least feel like taking because well being doesn't happen in your head. It's it's well doing, it's the stuff that you're going to do.

Graham Allcott 12:33

Nice, yeah, I think about some of the things that I desperately don't want to do on a regular basis, like going out for runs. I've also been doing the Wim Hof Cold Shower thing, which feels like it has a sort of metaphorical similarity here, because it's the thing that you don't want to do in the morning is get into a cold shower. But, but actually, there's lots of science around the physiology of that right, and like putting your body under the cold stress for 30 seconds actually makes your body more so you're kind of topping up your resilience in that kind of physical way as well.

Dr Samantha Boardman 13:08

No, absolutely. I often find it sort of like Groundhog Day, you know that it's like they're even there, you know, you're gonna feel better when you do it. Even still, you don't do Don't do it, I often have patients actually keep a log of how they actually feel immediately before they exercise. And then, you know, which is like the dread and really do I have to and then and afterwards. And that reminder can sometimes be you know, just that transformation of your mood when you do that. And certainly like the cold plunge is a perfect metaphor for doing the stuff that you don't feel like doing that actually makes you feel stronger. And why is human beings were? So we know, it makes us feel good. And yet we don't do it.

Graham Allcott 13:49

And still, we didn't do it. And obviously you study this, I'd love to know, just for you personally, do you? Do you still struggle with the same stuff? Like do you still have that same thing of? Yeah, I know, I feel better if I do this. And yeah, well, the research is there, but I'm still having a lazy day.

Dr Samantha Boardman 14:04

But I you know, again, it's sometimes it's like knowledge doesn't even help that much, actually. So what are you going to do? And that's I write about this a little bit in the book, too is this idea of insight imperialism, like this idea that like, oh, once the light bulb bulb goes off, and I realise that, you know, this is why I do that, then everything will change and it's not necessarily the case. There's a lot of lag time some you know, or or a, you know, we call it the intention action gap. Like why the thing that you know, you really want to do and you have the information about it, but you're actually not taking the action and how do you close that and certainly for me, I usually Friday mornings I go and walk in Central Park with a friend of mine. Every Friday I wake up and think Can I come up with an excuse? I really don't feel like doing this. But I know that you know that that she will be super disappointed but she's probably thinking the exact same thing I am but there's that accountability piece and that when you have you know, somebody else who's expecting you're much more likely to show up. So I think if we can build those little things into our lives in ways where we're more accountable and more deliberate about it, that we're much more likely to achieve it.

Graham Allcott 15:09

Yeah, I'll share a real quick little story around that as well. So I'm really behind right now on the new book that I'm working on. And I've got a deadline coming up next week, as we record this. And last Friday, I have this thing in my diary every summer, me and my business partner, we go for a day long walk. And it's once a year, and it's our way of catching up. And I was looking at this day in the diary, thinking, I really needed that day of solid writing. And I'm going to have to cancel this thing. And for some reason, I just, I think, ordinarily, I would just cancel it. And I just had this thing in my head of No, you're writing a book about kindness, the first part of the book is about self kindness, like, act your shit, like do, you know, do the thing that you're supposed to do. So I knew I really needed the walk, and I needed the space and the conversation and all that stuff. So I ended up not cancelling it. And then when I got to the walk, my friend said, Well, I'm so glad you didn't cancel it, because that we'd had this conversation a year, a year previous when we did the walk. And he really wanted to conclude the conversation. And he'd been building up, unbeknownst to me for two weeks, to finish this conversation that we'd had a year ago, and it was gonna be this really big moment for him. And I was dealing with all my stuff, and I didn't realise that I was about to deny him, you know, if I, if I did cancel the walk, so ended up just being one of those great decisions. And I think sometimes when I certainly I know, for my for myself, like when I'm in the midst of that sort of stressy narrative with myself about what I need, and you know, and sort of feeling guilty about stuff or whatever, then, you know, often I just I, I know that when I zoom out, I'll feel differently about it. But when you're in it, you just can't, you can't seem to sort of get out of the, the sort of loop of that negativity, right.

Dr Samantha Boardman 17:04

And also that illusion that I think that you're going to, you know, if you have that data for writing, you're just going to be so productive, and, you know, forget that you're gonna finish the book, you know, and that, that delusion, almost around productivity that is, really, I think, holds us back. And I remember looking at a study of students who, who study them in the library of their university, and they would take breaks to hang out with their friends, you know, every 10 minutes or so. And, versus the ones who like, stayed in their room or found some really isolated space to, to study. And that's sort of the advice, you know, most parents give their kids or, you know, professors would say to their students, like, you know, just isolate yourself, go off and study by yourself. But the ones who actually took those, you know, 10 minute breaks were the ones who actually did better. And we, we somehow get so sort of, you know, I think our blinders are on. And I was definitely one of those students who would retreat and find like a hole somewhere and go and study and I think probably depriving myself of just that social interaction, that actually makes you sort of more curious, it's sort of refreshes your motivation, it revitalises, you have these different ideas from talking to somebody else. And it's truly it, that is fuel and brain fuel that we get in that energy that we get from others, and it helps us see things so much more clearly. And the other thing that is like that, too, is I think just doing something outside of one's domain, I was just looking at the study of, you know, we all know that you always get that idea in the shower, you know, that's like when you walk away from your work in some way. Or you're not even physically sort of sitting down at your desk, but just having something you do outside of your main, you know, your main work, your central focus is so important to now you know, we're told today to the advice we get us to focus and, you know, drill down, do one thing and do one thing really, really well and how misguided that is, and even making peace with the idea of having hobbies. I asked a young woman a few years ago, who was I was interviewing what her hobby was, and she truly thought I was, you know, an ancient librarian, sort of asking her what she does, and she's like, do you mean do I collect stamps? It was this crazy, you know, and I realised how she looked at me as though I was sort of asking about some sort of strange thing and like, yes, in college, she had done things and in high school like that were sort of outside of her focus, but she wasn't anymore. And you know, again, looking at we know, no Nobel Prize winners are much more likely to have other like their you know, they play an instrument or they they do something outside of their central focus and having those abilities to go in and out of I think in to be flexible and then to sort of go back into the thing that you're focusing on that's where you get those good ideas and, and even to be to make peace with the idea of having a hobby that you can you just do for the love of the game that you might even be super mediocre. And like how, how just liberating it is to not even be that good at that thing that you do at baking or gardening or whatever, that it's really valuable, and I think actually does help us be more productive

Graham Allcott 20:16

is so true. And I think, Isn't it sad that we've gotten to this place where we feel like we don't have permission to do stuff outside of work, it's like, you know, we should be working to live as much as we live to work, right. And so, yeah, I just feel sad that we're there, I was actually doing something today about how most of my, most of my hobbies through have been things that through COVID times didn't happen. So I watched baseball, I sing with people, I go to theatre, and music, and all these things just kind of stopped and actually, that I've definitely noticed, has sort of, as definitely played a big role in just, you know, my feeling of sort of, you know, depleted wellness through the pandemic, as much as dealing with all the stress of work, and everything else is just like losing those spaces, I guess, to do things outside of work. And to just be in a really different headspace. I think it's really important. You talk about the word, the word vitality, I found really interesting in the book. And I suppose it comes back to this thing of thinking about well, being not as the thing to fix, but just all those little uplifts that you talked about, and sort of, you know, it's something that you invest in regularly. So do you want to just explain what you mean by the word vitality? And it sounds like it has a slightly different sort of meaning in like, across the pond, you know, in our respective sort of versions of the English language, maybe, but like, Yeah, tell us more about what does vitality mean to you,

Dr Samantha Boardman 21:52

I think of vitality is this sense of this feeling of a lightness and energy that, you know, sort of tells you that you are ready for anything, and it's the opposite of feeling, sort of depleted or down. And I think people often think that happiness is the opposite of depression, but it's actually vitality. It's and it's what we need to counter the hassles and it's something that then I think gives rise to little our resilience, the idea of like having resilience on a daily basis, not the bigger resilience, the rate the you know, the response to the, you know, big sort of bad stuff that can happen. But vitality is what fuels that everyday resilience. And it's, it's apparently I have my book in the US is called everyday vitality. And in the UK, it is ready for anything, because I hear that you have a very, I guess, delicious yoghurt called vitality. So that didn't go down so well over there. But also that maybe it was too much associated with the idea of ageing, and I think vitality is something that we need at all ages, it sort of transcends any age boundary kids need vitality. adults need vitality, I think the elderly need vitality, and it's really, you know, and so I really want to look at like, what, what is that feeling it because it's physical, its psychological, and where does it come from, and it's, you know, I think a lot of people assume when they're feeling really burnt out, or like, they've just kind of had too much, they need to, you know, move away, and they need to shut down and sort of start over and, and sort of Eat, Pray, Love their way back into to life or take a year off. And I was really interested in the sort of everyday ways that we can give ourselves a boost. And there's so much pressure, especially, especially in the US to, you know, in the well being industrial complex, like if you download this, if you buy that if you you know, then you'll be you know, feeling good. And it's a I think it's really maybe undermining even our ability to feel strong, and they're just little things we can do in our daily lives, like connecting and contributing something and challenging ourselves that are really the the wellspring of vitality, and it's not in your head again, it's in actually your everyday actions.

Graham Allcott 24:05

And so, I mean, I just love the idea that you can almost have vitality is almost like the sort of power sort of display on a battery and you can always like, top it up, and you can do more of it, you can be really proactive around this. So so you know, connecting with people and, and kind of making contributions, things that you can start to, you can start to almost turn into little actions as part of your week, right, as a way to really invest in yourself.

Dr Samantha Boardman 24:35

Yes, and the idea, again, is so much of it is counterintuitive, and I think the message we get in sort of culturally is focus on yourself, do things for yourself, you know, prioritise yourself and we we forget the, the fuel and vitality we get from doing things for others, even small things for others in an everyday way. And, you know, you've seen the research on, you know, spending money on somebody else. Are the assumption we get so much wrong, we assume we'll feel better if we spend it on ourselves. But actually, the bigger boost comes from spending it on somebody else. And even you know, we often assume that I don't feel like having a meaningful conversation or even having a conversation with anybody, I'd rather be by myself. And we expect solitude to make us feel better. But it's actually in connection, that that we feel better if you find that out on your walk as well.

Graham Allcott 25:24

Absolutely. And one thing I really liked in the book that I wanted to touch about was this idea of be on you. And the subtitle of that section has stopped worrying about finding yourself, which is really great. But tell us a bit more about about how to how to be anew.

Dr Samantha Boardman 25:44

Again, you know, there's so much you know, I think, emphasis about you have to find yourself and be yourself. And when patients come to see me, though, there's often you know, there's a desire and underlying desire to change. But when you sort of get to that place, they'll say, well, that's just who I am, I am who I am. And that's the way it is. And we often forget how much we are changing and evolving, and how do we ensure that maybe we're bending in the direction or going in the direction that we want to be going in? And I think by tapping into our our ability to be on ourselves, because you say, well, that's just me, that's who I am. But that's, that's a choice. These are little decisions. These are habits we've developed over time. And when we can be on you by even who somebody you admire right? Now, what would they do in this moment, you know, and who's somebody who, who you sort of can look to because there's, instead of looking always, internally and assuming that this, you know, true, you is inside waiting to be revealed? I think it's when we are sort of looking in many different directions, and many different role models and many different sort of opportunities. That's where we can sort of make better decisions. And I think instead of sort of retreating and immersing, we have if you have an outward orientation, and you give yourself permission to be like, what's the opposite thing I could do right now? What would be the exact opposite, you know, and for you, in a way, you're probably being you was maybe cancelling and not going on that walk with your friend, but being anew and overriding that, and I think it gives us the permission to override ourselves and our inclinations that might not be, you know, the best for us in the moment.

Graham Allcott 27:27

Yeah, it's good to sort of surprise yourself sometimes, isn't it and do things that you just, yeah, I can't believe I made that decision. And I think sometimes those are the things that you you remember more, because they feel like they're off the script, or they're out of the roadmap or something?

Dr Samantha Boardman 27:43

Yeah. And when we're actually not ourselves, we realise we're actually getting closer to the version of ourselves that we would like to be.

Graham Allcott 27:51

Yeah. Do you feel like that stuff gets harder as you get older, so presumably, the version of you that you get to choose to, to be in that moment, or then to be the Undo and ditch and that moment, is built up through all of your previous experiences and the narratives that you've been telling yourself? And obviously, the longer you have more those experiences. And the more you've told the narratives you think they get more stuck is it just think it's harder, the older you get to, to kind of change how you feel and act in those kind of situations.

Dr Samantha Boardman 28:24

I think it does get harder in a way. But it also doesn't mean that we can't in the same way that we have the ability to override, you know, these inclinations and not to forget that and I think as we get older to it's sort of more important than ever to be anew and to reimagine how you could respond. There's, there's a buffet waiting for you of responses to a situation, how do you feel like doing it? And I think maybe one of the reasons that COVID seem to actually take such a toll on younger people is, you know, that's when you're in this expansive stage of life. And you're sort of, you know, it's trying new things out. And maybe as we get older, you're maybe contracting a little bit, you know, what, you know, you like what you like, and that's the way that it is. And I mean, I think just looking at the data to on people who sort of aged well and had meaningful relationships, that flexibility and open mindedness is part of it, and that they're willing to try new things. They're not they're not retreating, they're still expanding in some way. And how can you do that? And one study I just read was looking at people who, who are physically sort of fed and active and staying engaged like that are much more likely to be open minded as well.

Graham Allcott 29:35

Okay, so I'm going to interrupt the podcast which you know, I don't do very often, and that must mean I've got something very important to share with you. So what I want to share is I've got these two really big events coming up, and I would love you to join me The first is the Graham Allcott. Productivity masterclass. It's a face to face in real life event and it's always typically as Small groups, so no more than about 30 people. And we're in his LinkedIn lift in his LinkedIn, it's on Friday, October the 15th. And we'll be walking through all the stuff from my book, How to be a productivity Ninja, my best selling book, over 100,000 copies sold, we've been in, in some of the biggest companies in the world, from Google, to Barclays, to British Airways to Disney, we've been we've been all over the place. And we are bringing this stuff to you. So if you want to come and get involved, it's Friday, the 15th of October 2021 lift in his LinkedIn. And it's one day with me basically walking you through all those different key habits of productivity, we talk about capturing information, how to organise stuff, doing weekly reviews, how to get over procrastination, email overload, it's all there during the day. So if that sounds of interest, if you're a fan of my stuff, and you want to, you know, really go deep in terms of implementing a lot of this stuff yourself, perhaps you've read productivity Ninja, but just never really got around to it. And you just want to day with me to really start to make some of those things stick or you've got particular questions, then yeah, the Graham Allcott. Productivity masterclass is probably for you. And there's also still some early bird tickets. There's also a discount tickets, if you work in the NHS, if you work for a charity or if you're on your own dollar, basically, as a freelancer. So that's all done on an honesty basis. So just basically book whichever ticket applies to you. And if you go to Graham Allcott, calm and then click the little button at the top for master classes, you'll find all the details and be able to book your place on that one. And if you can't join us in London, then we're doing an online thing, which again, I do, I do this once a year, it's called six weeks to ninja. And this year, it starts on Thursday, the fourth of November 2021. It's a couple of hours on a Thursday evening. And the idea is that we again, run through all the same kind of stuff, but over six weeks, nice watsapp group going on to keep everybody accountable as well. And, you know, really, it's a chance to, to go through it at quite a relaxed pace, I sort of put everyone through their paces in terms of what we do during the two hours. But doing it over six weeks, I think is a really nice, sustainable way to make a lot of these new habits stick. So again, that's Thursday, the fourth of November 2021 is online. So you can be anywhere in the world. It's seven, basically 715 until 915. UK time. So we've had you know, in the past, we've had people from Canada and the states and all kinds of places, you know, mainland Europe kind of joining as well. So six weeks to ninja says the fourth of November 2021. And through to Thursday, the ninth of December 2021. So if you want to get involved in those Graham Allcott, calm, and then at the top of the site, you'll see the patron master classes. And we'll support all the details for that in the show notes as well. So if you're interested in that, have a look in the show notes, click the links through there, go and get your tickets. I'm really looking forward to seeing you. And with that, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, so it's a really nice way of thinking about it, isn't it to just always be thinking, am I in expanding mode? Or am I in in retreating mode and just kind of using that as a little limb? As a little yardstick for how you're living your life? I think it's a really interesting one. I wanted to talk to you about another thing in the book. I don't know if I'm gonna pronounce this. Right. And it's called the zeigarnik effect. Yeah, and I just feel like that'd be a really interesting thing when it comes to productivity, which is obviously one of the the main topics of this podcast. So I'd never come across this one before what what is this gigantic effect

Dr Samantha Boardman 33:36

zeigarnik effect was sort of observed by a Viennese researcher, and she noticed how people would waiters in a restaurant would have this uncanny ability to remember the orders that were not completed if they were sort of, you know, working at several different tables, but the orders that they had completed and the tables they had served, they had no memory of. And so really, it speaks to our I think the way our brains function is that we're really good at remembering the stuff that we haven't done that went unfinished that the box we didn't check off on our to do list today. And that sort of ways. You're about to fall asleep, you're like, Oh, of course, I didn't do this. And I didn't do this. And I didn't do that, how we're sort of primed for the negative in some way. But and we then, you know, we sort of get through a day and think, gosh, I did nothing today and truly are blind to what we saw like and what we what we did accomplish all those things that we did get done. And it's again, like I think that the data is that like, you have the information. We're all victims of the zeigarnik effect. And we're often focusing on what's unfinished, what's undone and not recognising, like, wow, I actually got that done. That's pretty awesome. I can't believe I finished that thing. But then, so how are we going to and it can be pretty debilitating when we're just thinking we're just seeing the stuff that's unfinished and undone and how do we close that? You know, close that gap and not let it bother us. And I think sometimes putting operationalizing our intentions and our plans and kind of closing that intention action gap. And I love that research from NYU looking at, if you have something you want to do, like you have a wish about whatever that thing is, how do you actually get to that place where you're doing it? Because sometimes at the beginning of the day, you you're really motivated about it, but then it just doesn't happen? What are those things you can do? And it's really, Gabriel antigen has looked at this, and she says people who just are thinking positively all the time, you're probably just daydreaming and you're not going to accomplish your goals. So what are those things you could do? And she calls it her work goals, w o, p, and you have a wish? About what that you know what that thing you want to get done? Is there would that you have that the outcome of that wish? How would you feel when you when you accomplish that? And then you have to identify the obstacle? And like, Well, it's because I'm looking at my phone, or I'm not, you know, I just never get around to it. And then so what's your plan, and it's the W o p. And I think that's a really important way to sort of feel stronger, and your ability to get something done.

Graham Allcott 36:16

Yeah, that's interesting, because I often think about that, when I'm thinking about my own habits. And I'll often frame it like, replace, like, create this by replacing it, you know, replacing this thing or, like, swap out this for this, I never think of it as just one thing, it's always, I guess, I'm kind of naturally focused on those obstacles. And the thing that I was interested when I, when I read the zeigarnik effect thing, as well was, whenever I, whenever I do the sort of brain dump of like, here's the stuff that's undone, or here's the stuff that I need to follow through my list is always people. Right? So it's like, I need to get back to an about that, and then I'll have that email to so and so. And it's like, an almost like I just made to do list that I then would write down would just be like a list of names. And it's the sort of it's, it's the guilt of all of those people. Right. But I think that's it's a really big, I think it's a really big thing that really hampers our productivity that we don't talk about this stuff enough, right that like that, that sense of guilt, and we can kind of kind of go around around on just thinking about these things that and rather than actually making the plan.

Dr Samantha Boardman 37:27

It's so interesting, you say that about people, because it's truly my list is the same and it's the end. Why do we backburner that, you know, and what what is going on in our heads? If we can just feel like we can get those other things done? And really centering? The there's this connections and sort of you know, prioritising those, the reaching out of that and making that number one on the to do list for the next day?

Graham Allcott 37:56

Yeah. Let's think about productivity a little bit more. So just having having obviously done the research that you've done for this book, are there Did you did you find yourself noticing things about your own productivity from it, so you talk about a lot of different biases in the book, and I just wondered if there was anything that you'd really started to see where you stop correlated the research with your own behaviour and kind of opportunities to improve your own productivity?

Dr Samantha Boardman 38:24

This book took me five years to write. So my productivity is maybe

Graham Allcott 38:31

a loss of other things.

Dr Samantha Boardman 38:35

Though it was, you know, I always sort of tried to recognise myself and I have a website too called positive prescription, and the research and thinking again, well, it's not that, you know, wait a minute, what are these things that actually can make me feel better and truly, even like, during the pandemic, like when I did feel like, you know, sort of baking some more cookies, or eating some junk food, knowing how that would affect my productivity, and truly just how I would feel the next day, how that would affect how he would sleep that night. And I was one of those people who never prioritise sleep, you know, I sort of, again, I think, I'll sleep when I'm dead kind of mindset, especially when I was younger, and not recognising the value that that sort of undermined in my ability to, to be productive to focus, but also even to connect with other people and seeing so much research around that. And so during the pandemic, kind of creating even real sleep routines and making sure that you know, I was getting seven hours of sleep a night because knowing that the next day that it wouldn't it, it would it would affect me so much and so really kind of having those almost lifestyle factors and how important they are for our ability to be productive and focus but also like beyond that also to be social and that also, you know, in turn reflects our productivity. And I looked at the study of people just for four days eating junk food basically afford a junk food diet, and how it really affected their moods, their concentration. But most interestingly, as well was there where they didn't notice it as much as their partner did. So, you know, it's just a few days of sort of doing that. And you know, of course, we all have days where we let ourselves go, but how do we at least sort of put this front and centre in a way and be deliberate about it? Because when we're not it, actually, it's not just us? It's for the world around us, too.

Graham Allcott 40:28

Yeah. Let's just talk about routines and how you work. So what have you sussed out about your own productivity and the way that you work that, obviously you want to get enough sleep, and you want to have that feeling of vitality? What are your tactics for, for getting work done and staying on top of things and feeling good about it.

Dr Samantha Boardman 40:48

I mean, I think I struggle like everyone does with this. But at the same time, I really, I chunk my email, I read it in the like, I tried to get one thing done in the morning, before I go into email, and then I'll spend about 20 minutes firing the back, and then I'll wait and do it at the end of the day. And I think people who know me know that I'm not the person who's you know, going to respond, because I find it to be incredibly distracting. To constant, you know, we'd spent our entire lives responding to emails, and also not feeling the need anymore to write the most perfect email, I think that I spent so much time, you know, trying to write almost proper letters and emails, and really realising people kind of appreciate brevity anyway, and not having to, you know, write a novel, as I do that, and not being like pathologically polite all the time. Like, I am so grateful for this and where you would consider that and that may be a little bit less flowery language actually just gets the job done, too.

Graham Allcott 41:42

Yeah. And so do you do email twice a day, then? So you sort of do the first task in the morning, then email? And then at the end of the day, and then the rest of the day? You're, you're out of it? And completely out of it? Yeah. Do you find you get pushback from that? Like, do you get other people in your industry or colleagues or anyone else wanting you to be more online?

Dr Samantha Boardman 42:02

You know, I think it's important to be responsive. But as long as I am responsive, then you know, and, and people know that I'm not going to be an immediate like to immediately respond to something. And also, I'm a big believer in the old fashioned telephone. If there's something you really need to reach me on, you can call me and I will answer I'll be in my office, or I'll answer my cell phone. And so that's that type of thing. I think that, you know, even with, it's been interesting, like, sometimes with, you'll spend, you know, 20 emails can go back and forth, you could solve in that conversation on the phone. And so I'm a big believer in just like, wait, we're having this back and forth thing, if two emails have gone back and forth over an issue, let's just solve it and pick up the phone,

Graham Allcott 42:40

pick up the phone. I had Cal Newport on the podcast recently. And he was talking about in his new book, a world without email, he talks about this idea of the hyperactive hive mind, which is this idea that, you know, you're plugged into the hive mind, and then you have to be responsive all the time. So it sounds like you've done a really good job of unplugging from the hyperactive mind and actually, and, you know, having a bit more space in the way that you work. Do you feel like, obviously, the work that you do, and particularly around positive psychology, do you think that has a natural sort of osmosis? Or sort of rub off effects on you? Or are there times where the opposite is true, and you really struggle with it?

Dr Samantha Boardman 43:24

I mean, I certainly struggle with it. I think sometimes my, I definitely would sort of tend towards the more Debbie Downer, sort of, like sort of response to situations, but having to sort of, kind of take a step back and wait a minute and prime myself and almost forced myself to look for, to create uplift, to prioritise making an uplift. And I really think looking for delight in one's life and know, which entails sort of putting your phone down, I walk in the park a lot, and I never bring my phone with me. And I just need because I know I'll look at it. I don't listen, I listen to your podcasts at other times, but not not in the park. Because, you know, just hearing the sound of a bird or Yeah, yeah, if you're, you know, having that moment to look up and around you and to see what's beautiful around you. And I think we, we miss those experiences even of all, when we're so when we're immersed in our phones and allowing for that and you don't have to, you know, go to the Grand Canyon to find all those sort of all in every day, every day, even connections and and experiences that we can have. So it's really, I think, some something that I have to work very deliberately to override my tendency to maybe be a little bit more negative or pessimistic. And I've you know, it's it's not that it comes naturally to me, but I know it's something that that it's doable.

Graham Allcott 44:55

I was talking to someone the other day about how often those moments where you're in the park Or you just enter in a space and just totally present in that space and just noticing stuff you'd like to say that can give you such an those can just be up lifts just didn't love themselves can't, they're just looking at someone else feeding the ducks in the park or whatever it might be. And I feel like I am really good at doing those if it's been a prescribed time, like, if I've told my colleagues, I'm on, you know, vacation type now or whatever. But if I know I've got lots of work still to do, and I know that people are expecting me to be working, I do have this sort of guilt thing that stops me from, from sort of getting into that mode, even if it's just for a short period of time. So I tend to find that I'm really good at those things, on the sort of prescribed holiday days or on weekends is the regular time I'm very good at and very bounded around not working weekends. And I do kind of switch modes fairly easily. But have you got any tips for how I can do that just just if I've got an hour on a Wednesday, and it you know, I know, it's the thing I need, or what or even if I, in that moment, I don't know everything I need, but I want to be doing it more, have you got any tips for just in the midst of everything else being busy being able to create that space for the uplift and being present?

Dr Samantha Boardman 46:14

You know, I think so much of like, the important stuff in our lives appears on our calendar, you know, it's like this meeting this, you know, zoom this, whatever, that this appointment that's happening on our, our schedule. And so that's what we prioritise naturally. But if we can even take, then if we can schedule those, you know, from 1130 to 12, I'm just going to go walk around the block, and I'm not going to, I'm going to leave my phone upstairs and even let other people know that that's how we're going to be conducting our lives. And probably it's going to make us feel better and more productive and renewed. I mean, I have no patients in the idea of like, oh, if I just sit at my desk all day long, I'm going to be so productive. And that's we'll get out that's where I'll get everything done. But actually, if you do take that break, and I think especially during the pandemic, people not having those naturally built in breaks where you would, you know, go down from the office and maybe go to the deli and get some food or you would even those natural commute event, I think for some people was as sort of a space to is you went home to sort of decompress in a way and maybe what how could you use that effectively? Is it like maybe listening to your podcast then? Or is that like listening to music or doing something that could almost be a decontamination zone? And I think we're you know, it's been harder to set these boundaries for ourselves. But it doesn't mean that we can't it's just a question of priorities. And I often ask patients, when they first come to see me like how do you what do you value most like put down like three or four things that you value? Most they'll say, my health, my family and friends, you know, doing something for others that type of thing? And then say, Well, how do you spend your time. And it's interesting how they're, you know, they'll sort of be if they're doing this exercise, how they'll notice the, the gap between what they value and how they actually spend their time, especially their free time? Well, on the weekend, like I just, you know, fell into this social media hole, and I was on Twitter for three hours. And then, you know, I like it's like the couch potato for the next four hours. And then if you can create more overlap between what you really genuinely what matters to you, and how you spend your time, I think that's also a way to kind of create a buffer and create more uplifts for yourself. So you are in the face of the daily hassles, you're stronger.

Graham Allcott 48:37

Friend of mine, Gail Bainbridge has also been on this podcast before and she writes quite a lot about money. And she asked the same question, but about money, right? So what do you value in your life, and then you look at your bank statement, and how much you know, correlation is there between the things you say you value and then how you spend your money. And time and money are both they're both the currencies aren't they it's like you can put those towards, you know, where your values are really out, or that are the things that are really going to give you those up lifts, or you can just fall down sort of hole holes of doing the wrong thing. You also talked about news, and the whole sort of idea of, of sort of cutting back on your sort of media consumption and sort of information diet and so on. And so I'd love to hear about how you manage that. And what what's been that sort of process for,

Dr Samantha Boardman 49:31

you know, no news on in the bedroom period, no news on in the house, and I actually used to be one of those people when I was younger, too. I'd get home and I just turn on the news. And listen, the news in the US is, you know, I actually sometimes I'll go to the BBC because I find it to be just actually like, you know, it doesn't give me a panic attack in the same way that breaking news does in America. But, you know, we know there's all this research around it like people who were more likely to get in PTSD after the boston bombings or even after other pandemics for one to spend more time watching the news and consuming news. And so it's really important to go on a news diet, I mean, and to really trim what you watch. And when you watch it, like if you're doing it right before bed, obviously, that's going to affect how you sleep. But I sort of do it like I do with email, I do it on the book ends of the day, is I'll get my news then. And also, you realise that when you're when you're getting your news, get it when it's digested, not as it's working. And also I have a thing like, if you ever see a panel of people weighing in on the news about like, what's going to happen next, that's your signal to turn it off. Because they're just like, they're just coming up with ideas. They're trying to predict the future. If it's an evaluation, it's happened, by all means, like it's digested, but if it's them just, you know, mouthing off about what could happen. Now, turn it off.

Graham Allcott 50:55

So what's what's the practical when you say I get my news, do you? Is that you sitting down and watching a news sort of broadcast? Or is that just like a quick website search? Like how do you how do you actually consume it?

Dr Samantha Boardman 51:08

I you know, I get my news from news, not noise. It's a woman I went to school with it. She does. So she sort of breaks it down for you. Like, this is what happened. It's news. No, it's, it's great. It's really great. Just called Jessica yell, and and she does it on Instagram. And it doesn't, it's news, that doesn't give you a panic attack. And it's sort of what you need to know. So that's how I truly get my news. And, you know, and I also try to get balanced news too. And I'll try to sort of listen to both sides of an argument as well, because otherwise I realise I can be, you know, pretty blind.

Graham Allcott 51:36

Yeah. And we're all in bubbles as well. Right? So I think it's sometimes a really useful act is to consume the news the other side, and always try and put yourself in the empathy space with. Okay, so someone thinks this is correct. And like, your first instinct is like, That's crazy. But then to actually sort of follow that through with what would be the values and what would be the, the sort of conclusions and, and so I think that's a really useful thing, too. I was, for a while I was getting this little magazine, it was almost like a little kind of, sort of pamphlet thing. And I think it was called old news. But the idea is, it was the stories that were the headlines three months ago, and then it was following up on, here's what's happened with these things since and, instead, it's always like three months behind. And there's something quite sort of comforting about that. Because like you say that there's sort of, especially when I'm travelling in the States, and you see the they have the news on the TV, in the corner of the restaurant, or wherever. And it's like, just the, the just the presentation of it, and the rolling tickers and flashes, and it does make it all seem like the world's about to end and then you realise it's just actually some fairly insignificant minor story that everyone would have forgotten, you know, in the not too distant future.

Dr Samantha Boardman 52:51

Yeah, no, it is, it's really important to take that seriously. And even to engage also with people who, who don't agree with you, you know, we've gotten so and bring humility to, to all of those interactions. And I certainly in America, humility is not something that, you know, I've never been in a group of adults and said, you know, what do you hope for most for your children, it's very rare anyone ever says, Oh, I really want them to be humble. And it was really, you know, in this moment, especially for us to bring a little bit of intellectual humility, to our conversations and understandings. And an old friend used to say to me well, argue is there You're right, but listen, is there you're wrong, and sort of trying to bring that into, into our interactions with maybe people who who don't share the same views?

Graham Allcott 53:42

Yeah, that's really nice and just feels like a really nice place to wrap this up. But before we go, just tell everyone where they can get a hold of the book and and find out more about you and your work and connect with you.

Dr Samantha Boardman 53:57

Sure, it's um, you can find me at positive prescription calm and then ready for anything will be in bookstores, I think hope all over the UK or on Amazon. And thank you very much. I really this was illuminating and truly an uplift. Thank you.

Graham Allcott 54:11

So there you go. Thanks, again to Dr. Samantha Boardman, and also to my team, Emily fell, my researcher and producer on the show. A couple of quick announcements. So we will be going back to fortnightly episodes. I hope that's okay with you after our little summer break. So the background to this is we used to be a fortnightly podcast for a long time. And then what happened was during the pandemic, sort of lockdown one, we started using the down weeks to talk about topical stuff, it just felt like there was so much going on. And I really enjoyed having those down weeks, you know, and kind of little slots that you can throw episodes out and it just felt really good and it's felt like because we were doing that it made sense to me. We just go weekly as a thing, just by default, which we did. And I've just been missing having those weeks. And also, it's felt like a little bit of a treadmill. You know, I feel like we've not necessarily capitalised enough on some of the episodes or really made enough noise about each episode individually on social media and stuff because it's like, the next one's coming like in a few days, you know, you're always only a few days away from an episode. So we're going to go back to fortnightly. I hope that's okay with everybody. And the plan is to again use some of those down weeks and maybe throw you a few little bits around my new book on kindness in leadership, which is coming together. It's been slow it's been a slog, I'm not gonna lie. And some of you have been tracking the progress of this a little bit more on my weekly email rev up for the week, which you can sign up to Graham Allcott calm if you're not already. But yeah, it feels like a book that I'm that feels very personal. I'm really proud of what's coming out of it. And it's also probably the most challenging one I've written from a sort of hours in out foot out point of view and all of that so it's it's slow progress, but I'm getting there and I'm just really excited to to share it with you next year. It's it's coming around much more quickly than expected. So yeah, that's what we're doing with beyond busy as ever, you can sign up to my revenue for the week mailing list and find out lots more at get beyond busy.com. There's all the show notes, links to previous episodes. And just to say I hope you had a good summer I had I had an incredible summer, and we did a camping trip for a week in the New Forest which is beautiful. We went up to the Highlands of Scotland on the Caledonian sleeper train and water some mountains me and my little boy he went to his first ever football game we went to latitude festival together and then I went off solo to way out here festival which shout out to the way out here crew but honestly, you don't take kids to that festival. It's very much more the party dancing till 5am Coronavirus. So yeah, it's been a very interesting, long, exciting, fulfilling summer in lots of ways. And I just cannot wait just get back to a bit of normality like normal routine and school runs and you know, day to day work and all that kind of stuff just feels like I've been, you know, having a much needed break, which is really lovely. But it's time to kind of get back down to it. So looking forward to the autumn rolling round. So yeah, I hope you had a good summer. And yeah, we're back with another episode in two weeks time because we've gone back for nightly again, and I'll see you then. So until then, in the traditional sign off, take care and bye for now.

✔ Links:

Positive Prescription: https://positiveprescription.com/

Follow Dr Samantha Boardman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sambmd

Buy “How to be a Productivity Ninja”: http://amazon.co.uk/dp/1785784617​​

Our Show Sponsors: Think Productive - Time Management Training: http://www.thinkproductive.com​​

Useful links: https://www.grahamallcott.com/links