The First 100 Days as CEO with Ndidi Okezie
Graham Allcott 0:07
This is Beyond Busy. I'm Graham Allcott. I'm the author of a number of books, including the global bestseller how to be a productivity ninja. And I'm the founder of Think Productive. We help people to make space for what matters and get more done. And we partner with some of the world's leading companies who share our mission to transform the world of work. Beyond Busy is where I explore the often messy truths and contradictory relationships around topics like work life, balance, happiness, and success, and explore with interesting people what makes them tick. In short, this is where we ask the bigger questions about work. My guest today is Ndidi Okezie. She is a rising star in the charity world, the CEO of UK youth and a board member on three boards, including Centerpoint. We talk in this episode about being thrown into the deep end, having courageous conversations, the idea of audacious confidence, kindness, and much more. It's a really wide ranging episode and the last one before our summer break. It's a really good one. This is Ndidi Okezie.
I'm here with Ndidi Okezie, how are you doing?
Ndidi Okezie 1:27
I'm really good. Graham, thank you so much for having me.
Graham Allcott 1:29
Let's start with what you're doing right now. So you're chief executive of UK youth?
Ndidi Okezie 1:34
Yep.
Graham Allcott 1:35
So I guess the first place to start with that is, as you arrive to have this conversation right now, like, what have you been doing today? How's how's your day been so far?
Ndidi Okezie 1:42
Um, how's my day been? We are what we are now to two weeks into launching our new strategy. So we've got a few strategy events happening later on this week. So I've been debriefing on those. And also, we are heavily in the middle still of restructuring and hiring and whole kind of recruitment stuff. So I've been feeding into lots of recruitment work as well.
Graham Allcott 2:09
And so in terms of your journey with UK youth, so you've been imposed as chief executive for Is it coming up two years,
Ndidi Okezie 2:17
16 months, not counting the down to the day, or anything but yeah, 16 months,
Graham Allcott 2:24
16 months, and it's been quite a journey that you've had in that time. Let's before we dive into that, just for people who don't know what UK youth is, and what it does, do you want to start there, just just paint a little picture of the organisation that you're leading?
Ndidi Okezie 2:39
Absolutely. So UK youth is a leading charity, with a vision that all young people are equipped to thrive and empower to contribute to every stage of their lives. We are an Open Network Organisation, we have about 7000 Youth organisations and nation partners in our network. And based on our new strategy, we are very much focused on unlocking youth work as a catalyst of change that we believe is needed now more than ever, fundamentally, you know, we are a bit of a hybrid organisation. So we're an infrastructure body for the youth sector. We are direct programme delivery organisation as well, and we're a campaigner for social change. So collectively, our work is to kind of build a movement of like minded people who are determined to create a society that understands champions and delivers effective youth work for.
Graham Allcott 3:36
And I guess the last few years have been just quite a challenging time in the whole youth work space. Right. So just just give us a flavour of that challenge over the last few years.
Ndidi Okezie 3:50
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one, I think the sector at large, I think has seen, I think it's something like between 60 65% of cuts over the last 10 years, like across the sector, just in terms of the kind of the investment that's gone into youth work as a standalone thing that young people should have access to. And that's going into the pandemic, right, and then you've got the pandemic, which is just essentially exacerbated or the challenges or the issues at both a sector, structural level. But then more importantly, at the level on which you'd work addresses like to the kind of support provision experiences, pathways that youth work typically supports young people through the pandemic has just, you know, made that 10 times more difficult. And one of the ways that I try and bring it to life for people is that last year, if you think about every single sector, that was making its case for support, in terms of either government funding or you know, whatever that might look like in terms of support to help the sector still be there. On the other side, one of the things that I noted was that, whereas places like education, health, arts, all these sorts of other sectors, were making their case based on the, you know, the merits, really of the impact of that had that they had seen. The sector was was having to do that, but was also trying to essentially make its case for itself. And then when there were lots of conversations that really for me illuminated the white people don't understand this sector, government all the way through that people were having to explain who we are, we're trying to we're having to explain why when you're talking about young people, and you're talking about what you need to get ready in terms of being being there for young people on the other side of this, we were having to make a case as to why we should be in the conversation. And that just felt like such an eye opening moment that that for me just really crystallised why our strategic focus is what it is as an organisation, because that's just something we can never afford to be in a position over again.
Graham Allcott 6:13
Yeah, and obviously, the last year or so dealing with COVID, you know, we've had all these situations where it's been a constantly changing thing, there's been times when schools were closed. And, you know, I think one of the things that we're starting to see now is the, you know, the the kind of reports and data around homeschooling and how for, you know, for certain kids they were diligently homeschooling for, and for certain other kids, they were just not involved in homeschooling. And like, I guess that traditionally, you know, people look at youth centres as the place where kids go, if they're, if they're sort of not at home, and they're not at school, that's the place that kind of mops up that provision and gives young people a sort of place to, to throw their energies. But I guess, I guess there's like, there's a big issue, there generally, isn't there around around how young people have been hit by the pandemic, because obviously, young people weren't necessarily the most vulnerable in terms of getting COVID and getting sick. But actually, they probably had the biggest impact in terms of having to put the rest of their lives on hold.
Ndidi Okezie 7:21
100%. And it's interesting this even before that, like I think your point about if it's not school, and it's not home, where do young people go? It's such an important one, because the sad reality is that for most young people, there isn't a youth provision for them to go to. And, you know, that's the I think one of the questions I think, is a bit of an entry point into why this conversation is so important, why this issue is so important, is to ask any and everybody, where do young people go? Where do you think young people go? If it when they're not going to school when they're not at home? Because there's a question there about when home isn't a place you can go, what happens there, and when they're there, you know, there are issues with home. You know, you and I both have an experience of centrepointe. When you think about how young people end up homeless, there is there is so many different things that tend to happen for young people before that can happen and, and having that safe place to go. Is is such an obvious thing. But I think the sad reality is as society, we can't answer, they can go to a youth club, they can go to a youth provision, because we know that majority of young people don't have access to that. So I think that's that's just an interesting way for into this topic for people, I think, in terms of trying to understand why why are we advocating for youth work the way that we do? I think Yeah, to your broader point, it's the it took a while for the for this to kind of reach the kind of mainstream news media, but I think now most people can understand and accept that young people are one of the if not the hardest hits demographic coming out of COVID, whether it's from the economic perspective in terms of job prospects, whether it's from academic learning, whether it's from issues around online safety, you know, now there's all of this conversation around mental health challenges and the kind of steep rises we've seen in self harming, and, you know, sadly, you know, suicide rates as well. All of these things, I think, you know, digital divide the issue around access to the things that we all just assumed would just kind of carry on. I think the sad reality is that COVID has really exacerbated existing things. If you work with young people, none of these things I've mentioned are a surprise. But for so many people it's put it on a under a spotlight in a way that I think is helpful in terms of understanding but clearly it has really exist. debated the issues as well. So on every single one of those metrics, we have stats that would just really chill you, just in terms of what young people are having to deal with at this point.
Graham Allcott 10:10
So what's interesting, I suppose, is then you've got this exacerbation. This this exaggeration of, of the space that you're advocating for and sort of working within, you know, in terms of the work that you do. And then I guess also, just COVID itself has exaggerated just the challenges of being a chief exec. I read a thing. So, so UK youth has got this place called Avon Tierra, which is like an outdoor Learning Centre. And of course, you had to close that through the pandemics, that's a huge loss of funds for the organisation. And then you're six weeks into the job and having to furlough people or make people redundant. So I just love to hear about how you've managed to just personally deal with just such a huge, such a huge To Do List over the last, you know, year, 18 months, and just what's what's been your personal experience of that? Yeah. And
Ndidi Okezie 11:05
I think it's a great question. But I think the reality is, I've got nothing to compare it to right. The most, the most ironic or saddest part of all of this is that this is my first CEO role. So I've kind of came in with such naivety about what the job entails anyway. And I think even without a pandemic, it would have been a really interesting learning curve. But yes, the pandemic, almost accelerated things that, you know, maybe it will take five years for you to experience the chief executive. So yeah, the idea of having to lead virtually having to lead where you you haven't established relationships and dynamics, having to shut down parts of your organisation, you know, restructure the organisation, we furloughed 65%, of the organisation, at one point, then had to make redundancies when we realised and accepted that they, you know, there was real No, there was no coming back, you know, based on how we were going in. So we had to kind of, you know, re cut our cloth, as it were, and you doing all of that on a premise of, you know, asking people to trust you that don't know, you. And I think that there was a lot there that I went through a lot of self analysis, and, you know, self doubt. And a lot of it was this idea that an experienced CEO would just have made different decisions, or would have made choices in a different way. And, you know, I don't think any of that really bored out, but the reality is that you think that's the case, right. And it's, well, there's one reflection I shared on LinkedIn, I think last year, which was it reminded me so much of my initial years teaching where I was, you know, I was training I was developing as a teacher. But I was I had here in Leavens I had year 13. I had people for whom the fact that this is my, like, training ground is all well and good, but it's there one shot at this year, it's there and there was such a load and a weight of responsibility that was our people paying for your learning curve. And what does that what do you do with that at night, right? Like, there was just something that I couldn't, it took me a really long time to reconcile the idea that our man, but you know, if it was a different if some, you know, if somebody had been a CEO, longer, maybe, maybe that person's experience would have just been different at this time, when you really, really deserve to have a smooth and experience as possible. So there was a lot that was, I think, the biggest pressure for me. And then on top of that, yeah, just the reality of all the, you know, the juggling plates, or the spinning plates, or the different things that you have to do that, yeah, I really quite quickly dropped all the commitments I've made to myself going in about prioritising your own development and prioritising your own well being and like, you know, being the role model about how you balance things, all of that just completely disappeared. And it was working nonstop. It was, for me, the pandemic was was good, but not good in the sense that it took away those moments in the day that forced me to stop working, whether it's travel, talking to people just you know, casual chat. This one I could literally wake up at five o'clock in the morning and work all the way through to nine o'clock at night. And no one would stop me. And I did that for far too long, I think.
Graham Allcott 14:47
Wow. Yeah. Cuz it's just the it's like the, all those travel times and, you know, walking around and all that like that's the that's the mental space, right? Yeah, you have to join the dots between what you're doing and start to think strategically and all that. And if you're just heads down with it the whole time. I mean, that's just that's relentless, right? Absolutely. And I'd love to just come back to something you said a minute ago about your like, regardless of COVID, you were saying that you would have certain naivety is going into the exact role, and I kind of had, I definitely felt like I had a lot of naivety, when I did my first charity CEO role as well. I'd love to know what you particularly looking back on it, what do you think was particularly naive or different? And just how has it surprised you, regardless of COVID, just the role being different to what you expected?
Ndidi Okezie 15:42
Yeah. And it's a great question. And if for so long, last year, especially, every time I was asked that question, I kept on thinking, I haven't even been able to process it. Like, I haven't had the, the space and the time to just sit back and say, actually, what has that been like? And I think I feel, you know, a bit clearer now. But I still feel like there's probably a lot to unpick, for me personally, the top the top two things, I would say, where I always talk about the preparation that I did beforehand, because it was really important to me to get this right. It was an organisation I area of work I cared a lot about it was, you know, it was it was the ideals kickoff point for me in terms of this journey. So I really wanted to honour it. And it was a really big deal to be a CEO for me. So it was it was also something that I just wanted to honour, I was very, very conscious of the eyes that were on me. More so than I even realised with the reaction, once I was announced, just completely overwhelms me. But it it just increased and intensified the pressure to not fail. So I think I came into it, really wanting to honour all the people that were just celebrating my appointment. And that for whom I was a kind of a single symbol symbol that Oh, okay, yes, it's possible. It's done. You know, I met I always say, I remember the recruiter that place me talk, I think they invited me on a podcast, actually, pretty soon after I'd been appointed. And one of the stats was something like I always forget it, but it was something like only 6% of the charity, not for profit sector. Black and or women, something like that. So there's a there's a 6% stat. And there's a 2% that that remember, which now in terms of See, see, yeah, yeah. And it was just chillin, like, I just, I don't know what it just it just, like petrified me. And so I think I, you know, I already kind of honoured it in terms of preparation, but let's just say I turned up the dial. So I did all the prep work coming into it. And I've obviously been a leader and a senior leader for a really long time. So I kind of felt like he comfortable with this space. But the one of the biggest reflections for me is when they say, the CEO role is a lonely role. That's not just words, like, some things, something that I really thought I was ready for. But it's so real. And it's the it's something that I think I realised in the sense that one of the ways I understand it now that I try and communicate is that up until that point, regardless of who you are, where you work, what level all of those things, you have two things, you have a peer group, and you have someone that you can that is above you that is that supports you, right like that, then there is those two dynamics, whoever you are, you have that. And as a CEO, you don't have that. And I really thought that my senior leadership team was still that like, that's my team. That's my, but they are but they're not right. Like there's a slight there is a difference. And that became really crystal clear to me in a way that I think I was quite ignorant of. And then the above you, the chair and the board are a different dynamic to the above you that you've been used to be Yes, it's just a different relationship is a different level of accountability. So you are really on your own. And no one sees the organisation experiences the organisation thinks about the organisation in the way that you do. And so that's a very isolating experience. And again, I think I think I thought I knew what that was going to be like, but it's very, very palpable. How how Um, how much that impacts you as as an individual, I think,
Graham Allcott 20:06
yeah, I kind of have similar reflections on that. Like, I just think it's similar for me being the founder of a business. Yeah. As it was when I was in that car, and actually, I'd never really thought about becoming an entrepreneur before. And I think definitely, you know, just the experience of how it is all on you, and everything is your fault. And everything is your job, right? Just experiencing that as, as the CEO of a charity definitely made me think, oh, maybe I could run my own business. I've not really thought about it like that. That wasn't really part of my career plan before I didn't think. But But I suppose. Yeah, the the, what I certainly observed, in my time in the charity world, as well as that, where you've got a really good partnership between the CEO and the chair, that gets us so far, but like, you say that the chair is still, at that point, saying, Alright, so, you know, we're in partnership about what we need to do, but then you go and do it. And and, and then it's still lonely, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so he just a huge, just bundle of challenges to sort of get your teeth into over the last year. And I suppose the other thing, just to pick up on from what you talked about before was that sense of responsibility as a black female CEO. So like, what I mean, because obviously, your job is not to be a black female CEO, your job is to be the CEO, say, so it's almost like having two jobs, that you're carrying this sort of sense of responsibility. So I just love to just dive into that a little bit more. And just, I suppose the question is, what do you like? What were you seeing as the things that you had to do differently or to dial up or exaggerate to really kind of carry that responsibility? Well,
Ndidi Okezie 22:08
yeah, the thing is, I, I don't think I get to distinguish it in the way that you did. And I think I would love to, I would love to think about it, well, you're hired to be a CEO, and that's what you are. But the reality is that I, I am a black woman, yeah, CEO. And actually, each of those things comes with its own thing. And then you compound them together. And again, I've experienced the, even the the gender dynamics, I've experienced that through my own leadership journey, where, you know, you are invited to speak on things, because you're a woman, you're invited to feed into issues and topics because you're a woman, I've been invited to speak into issues on race for many, many years, right? So it's not, it's never really been something I've been able to decouple as a teacher, students would come to you because they could identify with you in certain things, you've got to, you've got to speak on issues from a place of connection, whether that's a locality, you know, based on like, you know, London, what it is to work, you know, grow up in, particularly environments all the way through to, you know, be an African being black being a female. So, I think we all draw on all aspects of who we are we can't we, you know, there is no, I don't know, I've never experienced a way where I just get to be the thing I am, as opposed to all of those things together. But yeah, I think again, the CEO level, I wasn't expecting it, I again, feel very naive walking into it, but when, when my appointment was announced, I, I just cannot explain to you the reaction. And the responses that I got the messages, the people kind of reaching out, like, Oh, my God celebrating the appointment, more than celebrating me, if that makes sense. It was like, Oh, my God, you know, a black woman is leading, you know, a leading youth charities, you know, an organisation and the third sector. And this was all before everything that's happened. So I didn't even know all the issues the charity sector had when it came to this. So, you know, you can almost understand that now. But at the time, I was really taken aback. And so yeah, I do think that there, there have been moments where I felt like I tell you give you a great example. So you can use it's 111 years old, right? This is an organisation that has weathered so many transitions, you know, wars, for goodness sake, like all sorts of things, and I have a few
Unknown Speaker 24:40
things
Ndidi Okezie 24:42
and pandemic aside. If I can, if you can imagine I say those words. One of my biggest fears last year, was that the organisation would close under my watch. And all I could think was, history is going to say a black woman Made UK us fold. That was all I could think was. And I just didn't think that history would remember there was a pandemic, all I remembered was you weren't given the baton, you dropped it. And it's gonna be more than enough to do kz dropped. It's gonna be all these other things. So I've never been able to decouple the my race or my gender, from my role. It's all felt very intertwined.
Graham Allcott 25:31
That's fascinating. And just such a surreal wait. Such a weight of responsibility. Yeah, it definitely feels that way. Did I suppose the other thing around race that I wanted to talk to you about maybe this leads on quite nicely is. So in the aftermath of George Floyd, you, you asked a lot of questions of your team. And you ended up coming up with this hashtag young black campaign around it. And it just sounded like, and yeah, and I suppose the other thing to throw in there is, like you say, was also been uncovered over the last year is just a lot of structural racism in the charity sector. And, of course, you know, far beyond that, but we talk about the charity sector right now. So what was what was that? What was that process? What did you What did you do? How did you approach it? Like, how did you get the organisation into a place to because you're still quite new and everything else is going on? What was the process around around asking questions about race and really understanding those issues?
Ndidi Okezie 26:43
I mean, I think if I'm honest, where it came from, was my my own complete surrender to the fact that I didn't know what the hell to do. For me, I was I think at that point, what would we March April May, maybe three I was I had just been on Go Go, go, go go. This was me. Like Go go go. Every couple everything. furlough staff did all of that. Go go go go go. And the murder of George Floyd brought me to my knees. And I think I was just emotionally spent, physically spent. I had absolutely no idea what to do. But I knew I knew I was meant to be doing something. And I am I always say this and I think some people may think it's you know, it's an interesting story. But I really was bowled over into like a like a foetal position. On the ground. I was emotionally so traumatised by by what I'd seen, I've, you know, I've got family in the states I, I just, I just can't, I can't I can't get emotional now thinking about it. Like it was an incredibly traumatic experience. And it just felt exhaustive. It just felt so it was one of those moments where I really did think, Oh, yeah, there's nothing we can do. Like this is just never gonna stop. It's relentless. And I think there was just a moment there for me where I went I and I did do on my own, you know, I had somebody kind of speak into my life as it were kind of like shake me up a bit, but very much realising that Wait, hold on. I do have agency like, if if, if this isn't the moment to lean into your agency as a CEO, then what is but
I didn't want to approach it as if I had answers because I really didn't. But what I was feeling was this night, my phone was buzzing, my emails were on fire. Like everyone around everyone was like, I don't know what to do. I just, I feel like all these emotions are coming out. And my staff was saying the same thing, just all this emotion, just this meme. And literally, all I could think to do was adjust. We just need the space to talk. Like, that's all we need. And that's all I did. So I literally emailed all my stuff, our whole staff email, it wasn't mandatory. It was, look, I'm gonna put this time in the diary. It's just literally I called it a space to talk. That's it, no agenda, nothing else. We're going to we're going to come together we're going to share, we're going to listen, and we're going to just talk and the majority of staff came. And we heard from, you know, I shared what was going on for me, we heard from other black colleagues, then we heard from like, you know, non black colleagues just talking about what's going on for them. And it was such a powerful, like, real, raw, emotional, challenging, candid conversation, that we ended it by saying what can we do with what we've just experienced? And we made two commitments, one, we would carry on internally with it, and we up to today, we still have the space to talk session. But we said, Why don't we? Why don't we simply offer that outs. So let's have, let's, let's create a sprint, let's create a call to action to have a space to talk. And that's where the young and black campaign was born. You know, we did it in partnership with others that shared this, this need to convene a safe space for young black voices to be platformed to be listened to, and for people to reflect on what they were sharing. Yeah, and that's all that happened. And we I could not have predicted what it would end up being and, you know, the the the resources and the people signing up, and the corporate partnerships have kind of come from it. But there was no kind of massive plan. At the beginning. It was literally, what do we do with this pain. And it was like, right, but I really believe I am such a believer in the humanity of people where it's probably my most naive trait, but it's the thing that has fueled me to where I am today, that I at the core, I believe that if if we can see the humane in others, I think that's the that's the foundation on which real social problems can be solved. So it was a very easy thing for me to do. And to champion why it was important to do and to accept the backlash and the you know, what happens when you lift your head above the parapet, especially on a topic of race, and all of the backlash that kind of came for me personally, was was worth it, because we saw all the benefit that was also coming from that.
Graham Allcott 31:58
That's super inspiring. I really hope you're not naive, because like, I share that naivety and God if that's what naivety is the same Well, you know, totally with you there and just believing in humanity. And I think having, I suppose having the confidence to say, as a leader, I'm not going to, I'm not going to give you all the answers, I'm going to create the space. That is, for me, that's just like fundamental leadership, right, is that leadership is about listening to and what you did is said, Let's all create the space to listen here. So yeah, just hugely powerful. What was the bit you said? Just the end there about the backlash that you had? So like, like, what was that?
Ndidi Okezie 32:45
If this is such an interesting, I remember telling my son, my senior team about this and my staff that like, there probably has not been one single time. I have posted about race talks about the young black campaign or talks about the issues around this online on an event where I've not been trolled. Like I've gone. Oh, 100% like it's so there was one event that we did, where we hadn't turned off. I don't know, something that hadn't turned something off. So the team got to see it. And we're like,
so, like, upset at like, you know, what, they and I, it really took me aback because I was like, Oh, god, that's normal. Like, that's like, you know, that's just what you experienced. And, and, you know, there were things even more sophisticatedly, which was around, you know, why is UK, US doing all this black stuff? I guess it's because, you know, I've got a black CEO, and like, you know, thankfully, my board were just absolutely rockstars about it. But I know peers that, you know, their boards were uncomfortable about making a statement or like taking a stab at all those things that, you know, we look back on now, where it was so controversial to put out a public statement denouncing the murder of a black man. But it was and I, you know, I there were times I would go into rooms, and people wouldn't talk about it. And I would just have to say, Hello. Hi, there's a thing happening. The world is on fire in an area we just gonna pretend. And yes, I might be the only person that looks like me in this conversation right now. But this is a very real thing. And you know, there's a lot that comes with that there's a lot of, and this goes back to my point about naivety, I didn't quite realise the fear that CEOs have about their job security. And like, you know, the way that people weigh up what they can or can't do, because of dynamics with their board or dynamics with, whether it's the Charity Commission or whoever. And there were so many things, it just didn't occur to me that like somebody would have an issue with it, or that that would be ever be enough to stop me doing that. What I thought was right. And I definitely made some mistakes on that. But it just has never occurred to me to, to, to dial myself down in any way in terms of the things that I believe or the things that I would wouldn't or wouldn't speak out for. So yeah, that's kind of what I mean, it was there was a real, I would say emotional cost. But usually, I'm fine. Like, it's it's part and parcel of being a leader growing into this. But at the time, I was very, very fragile, because I was just emotionally spent. So I think I have to be much more intentional about protecting my emotional state. Yeah, because it was, it did feel like an onslaught for for quite a few months, there was it was a lot. Well,
Graham Allcott 35:47
I mean, you're still here. And I'd love to just hold that thought. And let's come back to some of the ideas around resilience and where you are now a couple of things I just wanted to pick up. I'm actually shocked that even in like youth sector, zoom calls and LinkedIn posts and stuff that you're getting trolls in those spaces that like, yeah, I mean, I'm surprised by that. The other thing that you said there that just to sort of tell a similar story, so I told this story, just after the George Floyd murder as well. So my so my son's my son's mom, we're not together anymore. But yeah, she's black from South London. And I remember one time, we got kind of, like, verbally attacked and the threat of physical attack by this by this kind of drunk man walking down the street in Brighton this was a and the moment that was most interesting about it was not just the feeling physically threatened. Now, you know, I'm a fast runner, like so if I'm, if I ever sort of get into situations of physical threat on my own, I can wave Obviously, I'm with her, I'm not gonna run and she can't run as fast and all the rest of it. So we were just kind of walking quickly to get away from the situation. And we got away from this, this racist guy and sort of started to calm down. But the the moment for me was realising how, like, she just moved on to the next thing. You know, just kind of swearing. me this was like the first time I'd, I guess, sort of experienced that racism in that moment, you know, and to her that was just like, growing up in South London, just in nature. Her dad told me some great stories as well, by the way back bed getting stopped by the police with a with a golf club in his in the glove box, which is what he had to do driving around Brixton, in the 70s. And the police being like, what you're doing and he's like, I'm going to play golf, and they're like, we don't believe you. And he's like, look in the glove box. And in the glove box. He was used to carry a tee and the golf ball, just just the effect. But yeah, like just that whole thing of, you know, how Blair's a, she was about it? And I guess that's where you start to, to realise, you know, just the extent of your own naivety around some of these things. So yeah, yeah, just yeah, I'm still I'm still shocked that you're getting that in, in what would be seemingly safer spaces, right, like on LinkedIn or in youth sector stuff. Let's come back to where you are now. And obviously, just having having been through that over the last few months, do you feel like you'll get you're now getting away from that period of getting up at 5am and working to 9pm. And it just being one thing after another an onslaught? Like, are you still in it? Are you has that finished now? Like, what's your relationship with with that sort of style of busy?
Ndidi Okezie 38:54
It definitely feels different. And I think it's because I think the long I was thinking I might need to come back to you, but like, I think, but I think the there's just there's just no way to describe how last year and you know, the last wave of months has felt like it. It was not just the work. It was the emotional Wait, it was Yeah, you're just like I one of the things I often say again, is I you know, I I've chosen complicated, complex, big knotty context to work in. Like, that's been my route since coming out of uni. So I'm used to working hard. I'm used to working really long hours. That's, you know, ask my friends and family like that. So a thing about me, what I've never, ever experienced till last year, was the inability to switch my mind to what I wanted to switch it to. Yeah, so I, I just couldn't turn my mind off. Like I couldn't, I couldn't sleep and rest at night. I couldn't decide. I'm just gonna lie. Chill out and watch this film, I just it was the it was constant. And I've never experienced that before. And that's definitely dialled down. 100%. And I think one of the things that being able to launch the strategy a couple of weeks ago was so important for me because it felt like a year in the making. First of all, it felt like that was what I wanted to do from the moment I started. But we've also concluded our internal restructure, and like, you know, reorganise the organisation, we've launched that as well. And so there's, we're in the making that work stage. So they're still like, you know, we're still heavily recruiting, we still have lots of things about ways of working, but it feels like oh, yeah, this is what I signed up to, like, this is the Okay, I'm making all of that work. You know, one of my senior team describes the strategy as a promise. And it's like, now we need to live up to our promise. And I just love that as a description. But like, that's what energises me. So I feel different because all of that work feels like it's pointing to something that isn't just about survival. It's something very much. Yeah, this is this is the imprint we want to make on this issue. Let's go. That definitely feels different.
Graham Allcott 41:19
So it's like if you took COVID away, and you took George Floyd away and financial instability, we know that that's what your first 100 days would have been exactly.
Ndidi Okezie 41:30
My beautiful plan to like grieve and like literally bury I yeah, I would have been able to. That's, that's, that's what I that's what I really came into this wanting to do. And I feel like I'm finally able to get back to that.
Graham Allcott 41:47
So I suppose your first year and a bit of being a CEO, it's been a little bit of a crash course in lots of stuff. What do you think you've learned about yourself and what you think you've learned about the role?
Ndidi Okezie 42:00
Ah, I think those are definitely the questions I haven't quite figured out. And what have I learned about myself? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that one. I really don't, I think I think I'm still very much in judgement mode. So I think all I can think about is that, like, I could have done all of that stuff that I haven't got enough distance to figure out. And that's, that's definitely a problem I have, I'm always looking at what hasn't been done as opposed to what I have. That's definitely a problem. But in terms of learning about the role, yeah, like that I'm, I've, I've definitely learned that all those things that you read in books, it's different reading it to live in it. And again, I struggled so long, because I wanted to find a way of making that learning makes sense. And the closest I've come to it is the analogy of running a marathon. And I don't know why I've landed on this, because I've never run a marathon, and I'm very likely never to run a marathon. But I, I know people have and I know that, you know, I know what's what seems like it's involved. And one of the things that I think is, is that there is almost the preparation is so hard, there's so much you need to do to get ready for it. If you're serious, you can you can go really far in preparing for it and doing all the things that you could possibly do almost textbook preparation. Doesn't matter how great you've prepared, it's still hard to run a marathon. Like there's there's nothing about running it that isn't, it's hard to do it as, as well as you prepared. running a marathon is still a hard thing to do. And that's the way that I think about being a CEO that like I had thought preparation would water down the difficulty of doing it. That was my mindset going in. But if I could be really prepared, if I could be read up, if I could be planned up, then it would be easier. And you know, again, the reality is I don't know what it would have been like without a pandemic and without, you know, global, you know, marches around the race. But I still think it would have been harder than I was anticipating. Because of the the reality of what it means to be a CEO. is I think something you cannot explain until you're in it and you cannot feel until you're in it. And the the impact of what that does to who you are your psyche, your confidence, your rationale about who you are. There's so much it attacks. That I think if you're not if you're not able to really rally down into why are you doing this? Why is this important to you? Who are you I think you You will allow the world and others to tell you who you are. Yeah, don't have something to push back on it. That's that's a really scary experience, I think to engage in.
Graham Allcott 45:16
I'd actually written down as a question to ask you what drives you? And that just feels? Yeah, like, I totally agree with that. And I think you have to just have a really clear sense of what your own values are, and why you're in it and what you're trying to do. Yeah. And yeah, I think that points are really well made one that if you if you don't have that, then you are at the whim of other people will try and mould experience for you and stuff. Yes, exactly. So that sounds like it's something that you've had to reflect on and have front and centre a lot over the last year. So what are the main things that drive you?
Ndidi Okezie 45:56
Yeah, it really is. And it's good, because it's the same thing that's always driven me, and it's but but I've had to lean on it more, obviously, in the last year and a bit than I've ever had to before. And it's funny, because when I came into the role, one of the first things I said to the organisation and like kind of my first or all hands kind of meeting was, what is our why, like, what, why are we here, because if we don't know our why the things that we experience are going to shape us and move us and shape us. And, you know, we'll mould to the to the situation as opposed to shaping the infamous situation ourselves. And this was in January, I had no idea was about to come. But for me, that question of my Why is is so integral to why gets up in the morning. And for me, it very much is anchored in my Christian faith, anchored in the notion that I it's not just happenstance that I'm where I am doing what I'm doing. And if I'm in a space, if I'm in a conversation, if I'm in an interaction, I'm meant to make that thing better, I meant to be a positive influence in that space, just this is a day to day like, that's the reason I show up is, is to try and make a difference. But at the much more micro level, you know, this, I feel such a weight of responsibility to take the baton on from my forefathers, and, you know, the people that have come before me on matters of social justice, equality, you know, making the world a better place for the generations that come behind you that that is at the very roots of who I am. And so I've chosen work that focuses on young people that focuses on equality, and focuses on social justice, because I feel like I am benefiting from the literal blood, sweat and tears of people who have sacrificed that came before me that there is this weight of responsibility that I can't drop the baton, for the generations that are coming behind me. And so that's what motivates me. And that naivety that I spoke about before is, is rooted in this idea that I really do believe that everything that we see is has been created is man made by every injustice, every every social construct, every way that the world works, is something that man as a society has decided. And so if it isn't working, we have the agency to decide something different. And so if we have that agency, how dare we not, right, like, that's the thing that just makes me It's not fair, it's not right, that some kids just don't have an have to experience less than others. I just think that's nonsense. There's no reason for that. And if we just set the world up to be different, or to operate different the systems that surround young people, if they operated differently, that wouldn't be the case. And my, my contribution to that work, is what drives me.
Graham Allcott 49:16
I just want to say Where do I sign up? Yeah, absolutely. Hallelujah to all of that. Before we finish, it feels like with everything that you've been through the topic of this podcast is just particularly, like it's just a particularly important one, right? getting beyond busy and getting out of that sense of buisiness and into a space where because, you know, you have all people, I mean, you deserve some lightness, and it feels like there's an awful lot of weight in everything that you're doing in the responsibilities that you're carrying. And, you know, to get out of that as well and switch off and And just have have lightness in your life as well as that weight. So, I would just love to hear your thoughts on what it what it means, either right now or in the future to get beyond busy and to, to be in a different way of working to how you've been over the last few months. Oh, great. That that's why this podcast is for years. And still. It's like the eternal question. No answers either.
Ndidi Okezie 50:30
I was saying to according to that to the I think I was reading somewhere yesterday, but this this kind of article about, you know, don't judge yourself, because you haven't emerged out of the pandemic, like with this whole new, you know, set of hobbies and skills and like self development, and all that. Yeah. And like, you know, rediscovered balance in your life like, Don't, and I just, I just, I ate that article out, because I can feel myself starting to feel guilty, because I haven't, like, found this beautiful balance. And I haven't, you know, rediscovered, you know, this hobby that I was, as it's been laying dormant, that it really has been a matter of survival. And it's been a matter of like, go go go. And I've, I've wrestled with your question even before this role, and it's only become even more challenging for me here because I, I honestly just don't even feel like I have the headspace to even think about what that could look like. And now to be honest, my energy is ironically, on making sure others are able to do that. So I think about my my senior team and like my staff more broadly, and just like, how do I how do I make sure they are doing that? And it's, it occupies my mind far more than Am I doing that? And I've been told, I realised that I really have that I realised the power of role modelling and all that good stuff. But if I'm being really honest, that's the stuff that that I exercised about much more than my own personal balance. Because I still haven't quite figured out how to ensure that they are able to do that as well.
Graham Allcott 52:16
Yeah, that's so interesting. I just had Jody cook on the podcast, who is the founder of JC social media, social media agency, and she's written a couple of books that one business Book Awards in the last year Instagram rules and raising entrepreneurial kids. And she was saying exactly the same thing about her agency was, she basically said, Look, when COVID here, my thought was, everyone's going to be fearful. And my job is to kind of mop up that fear so that they're not fearful. And just do the fear for them, which, I guess in the one sense, feels admirable. And it does feel like that's part of the weight of responsibility of being a CEO. But also, yeah, like the other part that you said there, the role modelling. And, you know, like, over time, it become it would be unsustainable, if you if you were, if your focus is only on everybody else's balance to the detriment of your own, right. Yeah. What do you think it would ideally look like if you could wave a magic wand and then tomorrow, you have a different, different relationship with your work that prioritises you, is there anything that would be particularly at the front of the centre of that?
Ndidi Okezie 53:29
That's such a great coaching question. What would it look like if you could do that?
Oh, gosh, I honestly think it's the really unsexy stuff, which is that like, you know, you're just not, you know, glued to your phone 24 seven, that you're like, you're able to go do something else, like I haven't, you know, I, I, my mom stays with me, I'm, I'm, you know, she's been shielding throughout all of this. And it's been a very challenging journey around the vaccine. So like, I still I haven't seen family and friends in a year and a half, like we have all the things that that my commitments to my friendships and to my family would have pulled me away from, because I would have felt equally committed to them. So I would have made time for birthdays, for visits for parties, all of that has been taken away. And so it would even just look like being able to do that. Like just being able to just go and hang out with my friends and family and not be looking at my phone and not be worried about you know, what's next in terms of work. So I can't wait honestly, to get back to that. I haven't seen my nieces and my grandchildren in a really long time and video calls is not cutting it at this point. So yeah, I just can't wait to finally be able to just go hang out. Fitness, let alone travel. I can't even imagine that anymore. Yeah, so that's, I'll take that as the Next step,
Graham Allcott 55:00
yeah, well, that's a great step towards getting beyond busy and feels like a really good place to leave it. I just want to say one thing, before we finish, which is that you're a trustee of Centerpoint. And I've been on the board of centre, user marathons and be under no illusion, they're going to ask you to run the marathon because that's, that's why that's why I ran the London London Marathon. Because Centerpoint said, Hey, we want to trust you to do you can't use as like, seems to believe that I'm going to be running a marathon. And so there's no way you're getting out.
Ndidi Okezie 55:34
I'm saying is, I will find you the people to do it. The number one cheerleader, don't worry, but oh, my goodness, can't get.
Graham Allcott 55:45
Just want to just say just super inspiring, just listening to all of that. And just congratulations on everything you've been doing. And just with everything that you've got going on, it's Yeah, just a pleasure and an honour to have you on here for an hour. So just want to say thank you so much for being on beyond busy.
Ndidi Okezie 56:02
Thank you. It's been such a lovely conversation. I'm really just can't wait to continue to see what you're gonna do strength to strength. It's been. I love, love, love your show. So thank you so much for the honour of being able to be on it.
Graham Allcott 56:16
Thank you. That's very kind. Thank you.
So there you go, and Ndidi Okezie, just a really good episode, and just really enjoyed connecting with Ndidi. And she's also, we didn't talk about this during the episode. But if you want to hear more from her, she's also the hosts or the co host, I should say, of the ru convinced podcast, which is a really interesting debate show. And it looks at a wide range of topics around children and young people and youth work and professionals. And yeah, you can find that on any podcast platform, so be sure to let her know what you think. And also, I was just asked after we finished the recording to just mention that she's on social media as well. So if you want to connect with indeedy, she's on Twitter and Instagram, and the username is @Ndidi1st check her out on Twitter and Instagram. I am honestly I've got so much like fiddly stuff going on and buying camping gear ready for summer holidays getting ready for latitude festival next week, which sort of feels really surreal. Did a little practice run in my garden which I put a picture that on Instagram, if you want to have a look just at Graham Allcott on Instagram of me and my boy just practising ready for some proper camping. Just one of those things with autism like it just feels like if you do a little practice when he gets his head around, it just makes things easier. cuts out the anxiety. So we did that the other night. I'm still I don't know, catching up on the sleep from that book deadline buying, you know, temp eggs and all this other stuff getting ready. And then yeah, just a mad couple of weeks. Really ahead. So yeah, we're going to be wrapping up with this episode ready for the summer. So no episodes have been busy for the next six weeks. And then we'll be back. We got some really good ones already recorded and lined up. We got Nick Marks, very famous Ted speaker talking about the Science of Happiness. And yeah, some really good ones coming up. Samantha Boardman as well. He's got a really good book out. She's a positive psychologist and therapist. So yeah, some really good ones in the can ready for when we come back in September. And yeah, it's been a really good run, actually, with the last few episodes. I've just, I've really enjoyed these. And yeah, we're going to probably move, as I say, in a couple of episodes ago back to we're going to do one a fortnight. But the idea is we'll still do some other episodes in between on the sort of down weeks like we used to do in COVID pandemic, lockdown one, because we used to be a fortnightly podcast. And then we we just started finding that there was so much other stuff to talk about that we were kind of using the off weeks, so I kind of want to get back to having off weeks ready again, not I'm predicting another lockdown. Am I off guard? Just thought of that, though. But yeah, it's a scary, it's a really interesting little little time period coming up. So that's what will be happening in September. But yeah, I just want to say a huge thank you to Emilie and Pavel, who's my little team on on the podcast and particularly over the last couple of weeks where I've been less than forthcoming on getting my bits done. So it's kind of left pivot a little bit at the last minute, which hasn't been the case for a while. I've been pretty good for the last a while. But yeah, that just you know, makes everyone else's job a little bit harder. So thank you for your patience for Pavel and Emilie. As I've been sort of heads down on the book and all of that, our sponsors for the show, as ever Think Productive. If you are interested in bringing us into your organisation to talk productivity, helping your people to do their best work, we're all about helping to transform how you think about work. And if that's you, just drop us a line go to think productive calm and you'll find the thing productive office in your country. And if you want to drop me a line individually, it's just Graham at think productive dot code at UK or connect with me on Instagram @GrahamAllcott. And finally, to say I'm doing my my weekly email is rev up for the week. So it's a it's a one email a week thing on a Sunday night goes out of 4:05pm. And it's just one positive or productive idea for the weekend, every week. If you want to sign up for that if you just go to Graham allcott.com forward slash links. I actually just go to Graham allcott.com. And there's like little forms that you can fill in on the on any of the pages that were signing up for rev up for the week. So if you want to keep in touch with what I'm doing over the summer, then rev up for the week and also my Instagram are probably the best places. And yeah, we just love to hear from you. And if you've got other thoughts about guests for this podcast or anything else you want to give me a shout about just drop me an email Graham at thing productive.co.uk.
That's it School's out for the summer!
is. Yeah, it's a really interesting feels like a sort of transitional liminal time right now, as I'm recording this and it's getting ready to really change gears in a very surreal way. Try and dodge the COVID along the way. And yeah, just have a great summer and I'll see you in September. Take care Bye for now.
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