Beyond Busy Episode 103 with Therese Hudson
Graham Allcott 0:04
You're listening to Beyond Busy, the show where we ask the bigger questions about work. My name is Graham Allcott. I'm your host for the show. And I have to say like, My throat is absolutely dying. Like I've just had this awful cold all week, I've had a really bad cough. And so what that means for you is there's going to be very little preamble this week, I'm just gonna go straight into the episode, I'm talking to Therese Huston, She is the author of this book, "Let's Talk! Make Effective Feedback your Superpower". And I think this is a really timely and useful book. And there's a couple of studies recently that one that found that 37% of managers dread giving feedback. And another one found that 65% of employees wish their managers gave more feedback. And I've been thinking about this a lot, because as part of The Kindness Happening, one of our challenges for the week was to give kind feedback. And I've realized that it's something that I need to do a lot more than I currently am doing with this whole kind of challenge around it encouraging us to try and give at least four pieces of feedback a day. And I thought that'd be easy, it was surprisingly hard. So I'm going to lay down that challenge for you. We called it the four quarters challenge, I'll put a link in the show notes here to the blog post that I've done about it. But basically get four coins, put them in your left hand pocket or on the left hand, left hand side of your desk. Every time we give feedback throughout the day, move one of those coins to the right hand side. And try and do that every day, give at least four bits of feedback a day and just make it just the norm make it the expectation that this is something that we always do, rather than a thing that we resort to when the work is bad or the work is amazing. But you're giving feedback across that full spectrum. So that's my little challenge to you. And let's get straight into the conversation. So really enjoyed this. Here's my conversation with Therese Huston. Cool, we are rolling. I'm with Therese Huston. How are you?
Therese Huston 1:59
I'm doing stellar Graham. It's great to be here.
Graham Allcott 2:01
Yeah. And you're Seattle and I'm in in very dark Brighton and so the the miracle of the internet means that you're you're starting your day as I'm ending my day.
Therese Huston 2:12
Yes, yes. And I but I don't know that it's much brighter here. You know if you've ever been to Seattle, where it's gray, people complain about the rain, but it really the darkness is what's hard. Yeah,
Graham Allcott 2:21
I had one night in Seattle, which was a really memorable one. My favorite band is an Australian band called Hiatus Kaiyote. And I was traveling from Portland, somewhere south of ... where I was going next. But basically I managed to reroute my trip for one night only and catch them in Seattle. And it was just like this, this really rock and roll thing on the middle of a business trip.
Therese Huston 2:45
Oh, you you've been to more concerts in Seattle now than I have. We got my husband, my husband plays trombone. So we'll go to either his concerts or go to jazz shows. But in terms of like a, you know, rock and roll band. Oh, yeah.
Graham Allcott 3:01
Well, Hiatus is actually quite jazz actually. But there Yeah, kind of jazz electronic, I guess a bit of rock too. But they were playing in one of the rock venues on the in the middle of a big long street in the center of town. I can't even remember what the place was called. But there you go. That was that was my one. My one day in Seattle. probably pretty Sleepless in Seattle too. Yeah. And and you're not a Seattle Seahawks fan. Right. You're a Cleveland Browns fan.
Therese Huston 3:27
You are good. You did your research. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, football in America. American football is a big thing. And I grew up loving the Cleveland Browns, which is a team that perhaps no one in the UK is ever heard of because they've never won a Super Bowl. But I was I was so much of a Browns fan. I'm sure there's some parallel in soccer, where we would go to training camp because you didn't have to pay we didn't have much money. When I was growing up. We would go to training camp in the summer. And when the players were done, they would come in late sign autographs, and we we would wait at the sidelines. Oh my goodness. I was I was a very diehard fan. And then if we if we had enough money to go to a game during the season we would go but i was i was a real football fan growing up.
Graham Allcott 4:12
Well, I think we're Kindred sporting spirits because my football team is Aston Villa and we shared the same owner for a little while Randy Lerner was the Cleveland Browns and of Aston Villa and I think basically ruin both.
Therese Huston 4:25
Both franchises. And I noticed you have a jersey hanging on behind you is that is that?
Graham Allcott 4:30
Yeah, that's a that's an Aston Villa 1982 European Cup winning jersey signed by the entire team. It's a little prized possession.
Therese Huston 4:40
That is! Nice job. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 4:44
So let's talk about your book. Let's talk. Hey. So the book is let's talk make effective feedback your superpower and really enjoyed reading it and we should probably start with your story at the beginning about how Your boss tried to give you feedback, but you are both on the toilet.
Therese Huston 5:05
Yes. So I had been is a couple of jobs ago, but it was I was first year in the job. And my boss was someone who who often would let you know how your work was going. But it was annual performance review time. I've been there a full year. And I'd asked her could we can we have a conversation about how this year has gone for me? And she said, of course, why don't we do this over lunch? Like, okay, great. Let's, you know, keep it relaxed. So we went out to she took me to a very nice restaurant, and the whole lunch experience. We talked about other things we talked about, I was engaged. We talked about my engagement and the marriage to come. We talked about her family, we talked about our pets. But we didn't talk about my performance, right. So it was lovely. But but we didn't get into what the purpose was. So towards the very end of the lunch, I see that we're we're leaving, I'm trying to figure out how am I going to bring this up? How am I going to bring up a performance review? I figured, well, I'll bring it up on the walk back to our offices because we walked to this restaurant. But before we leave we we go to use the restroom, the public restroom, at there at the restaurant. And while we're both in the loo, she starts to say, Oh, so by the way, you asked me how you were doing? No. You don't know who's gonna walk in. Um, I can't write any of this down. many ways in which this was awkward. And she was only saying positive things, which was great. But it was still it was one of these critical moments where someone was trying to and she was super busy. She had just taken on a new role herself. I understand what was going on for her. I don't think this would represent it her best feedback moment ever. But she was busy. And she was just trying to squeeze me in. But it was that was that was a hard moment. And it was kind of funny, because then on the walk back to her office, I'm like, Can I bring this up again? Can I ask for more feedback? Or was that it?
Graham Allcott 7:02
We don't know.
Therese Huston 7:03
Is that it, are we done? Oh, my goodness. Oh,
Graham Allcott 7:05
I'm so do you think that's because, like, so there's a thing? In your book that says 37% of managers dread giving feedback. But then 65% of people want more feedback. So do you think in that moment, she decided I'm just going to have a nice lunch, I'm going to just get to notary small rather than actually, you know, do the thing that we're supposed to be here to do? Do you think it's that kind of dread and avoidance?
Therese Huston 7:33
Well, you know, in her case, I'm not sure that that's what it was, um, it could have been because you're right. At least in the US, I don't know how the numbers are different in the UK. But in the US. Surveys show that that about one in three managers really dread feedback conversations. And the managers that I've interviewed thinks that number is grossly under reported. They think it's at least 50 50%. So it could have been that she was dreading it. But I think what was more likely is she I wasn't a problem child. I was I was one of the employees that was a high performer, I can see I can think of one or two other people on the team that perhaps she was frustrated with that those conversations might have been harder. And so I think that for, for me, she was just like, what do we need to talk about everything smooth sailing. And that's an interesting issue too. For managers. I think all too often, as managers, if if, you know, you've got the employees who take a lot of your attention and coaching, and you've got employees who are just so easy, that you're grateful. And you don't think that they also need to hear praise that they need to hear which of the things that I'm most grateful that you do, or here's the impact that you're having, when you do this, you make my job easier. And that's that's the kind of praise so many of us appreciate, because now we know where to pivot, where to set aside our own work so that we can help. Because ultimately, you know, in any job, even though it's not written down, our job is to make our boss look better, right? Ultimately, your your job is to make your boss look better. And so if your boss can let you know what, what helps them do their job, or what makes them look better, you know, maybe you're not going to be that crass and put it that way, but it can can really be illuminating as an employee.
Graham Allcott 9:10
Yeah. And you talk about feedback being a superpower. And, you know, the idea that a thing that you can do, can have this, you know, huge, you know, sort of snowball effect on lots of other people around you. And so do you think that is, do you think that is because we we tend to focus on giving feedback to the people who are seen as underperforming or problematic rather than necessarily seeing it as something that we all need to, you know, regularly hear as well as regularly give as well.
Therese Huston 9:43
I do think we need to regularly hear it. In terms of there being a snowball effect. I think that it's one of the most. You know, when we think about productivity strategies, giving good feedback is one of the ways we can immediately make everyone And around us more productive. You know, if you're giving recognition or praise, you're letting a person know, this is what I want you to lean into, I need you to be that good with clients or I need you to get stronger, you know, you're already good at negotiating. And I need you to continue to lean into that superpower. Right? So we we allow people to get more efficient with their time. Plus, we're now going to spend less time having to figure out who do I want to assign to blank, because I know I know what the strengths are on my team, I know who's going to be good at that, or who's looking for an opportunity to develop. So I do really think that there's a snowball effect, it makes us more productive as managers. And of course, there's also emotional issues. If you're, you know, if someone gives you bad feedback, Graham, it takes up so much of your energy, right? to process it, you're processing it with your partner, you're processing it with other people on your team, like, what Where did that come from? And it uses up a lot of emotional energy when we're not receiving good feedback, or if we're bad at giving it right, because then you, you ruminate over how you're going to say it. So there are a lot of different ways that you can have either a positive snowball effect or a negative snowball effect in either direction, depending on whether it's a skill you're developing, or a skill you're avoiding.
Graham Allcott 11:14
And what do you think about the different generations in the workplace around this? So there was that bit in the book where you talk about millennials, more interested in feedback, then, then my generation, the Gen X, and baby boomers and millennials want something in terms of feedback more on a week to week or month to month basis, whereas baby boomers and Gen X is a much more like once a quarter or you know, once every six months or so. And what do you think about the challenges there have, obviously different generations managing each other and those those kind of different cultural expectations?
Therese Huston 11:54
I have, I have different thoughts there. So I know a number of people who just chalk this up, either as millennials or Gen Z are less secure, or they want more praise, you know, they want a blue ribbon for everything. And there's so there are some people who take that view that the reason that millennials and Gen Z are seeking more feedback is because they have been brought up in environments where they get really frequent praise, or they want that reassurance. So that's, that's one camp. And I can see I can see where that's coming from. But there's another camp, I've been interviewing a number of managers. And they've pointed out that when they were in their 20s, you know, they're now in their 40s, or 50s. But they point out when they were in their 20s. They didn't know what they were good at. Right? When you think about it, you know, you're kind of like, I'm not sure what I'm not sure what I do well, compared to other people. I mean, I know what I do, but I don't know how it really compares to them. So that really got me thinking that part of what could be happening there is we're not sure what's distinctive, what unique contributions each of us bring in our 20s. By the time we're in our 30s or 40s, we're starting to get a sense of both what we like to do and what we're good at. So there could be that element as well that any generation when they're in their 20s is trying to chip away at what what are the things that I actually do uniquely? Well, what's distinctive about me? So I think there's probably both of those probably contribute, but I thought that was a good insight that when you're young, you're not sure what you do well.
Graham Allcott 13:20
Yeah, I went to the other thing around that is that for millennials, and then Gen Zed as we would call them as Gen Z, Gen Z. I wonder if you know, though, those younger generations, the The fact is, they're coming into a workplace environment that is changing so much more quickly than when we started our first jobs. Right. And so just that sense of needing the frequency of feedback to be faster is because I suppose people look at nine months as being that sort of typical, you know, sort of shelf life of a job rather than three or four years as probably we did. Maybe.
Therese Huston 13:57
Oh, so very interesting. Yeah. So you're thinking maybe about the turnover, the fact that people change careers so much more often. Yeah.
Graham Allcott 14:03
Unrolls. And, you know, there's there's this kind of sense. I think there's a sense at the moment about lots of the jobs that people will end up doing from this sort of Gen Z and millennial kind of generation don't exist yet. Right. And so.
Therese Huston 14:19
True.
Graham Allcott 14:20
I think the idea of a job for life or doing the same thing for life, right, was kind of on the wane as I was coming into the workplace, but it feels that feels a million miles away from where a young person is now. Do you think?
Therese Huston 14:33
That's a really good insight? You're right, and when I think about I don't have kids, but I think about my nieces, who are, you know, 19 and 17, and ensure that jobs that they're going to have 5 10 years from now probably don't exist today?
Graham Allcott 14:45
Yeah.
Therese Huston 14:46
That's such a good point about how there's so much transition. And I also wonder, you know, we're recording this during COVID. how that's going to affect job prospects for people, right. So I do think there's a number of factors that are that could make people feel that they need more feedback when they're entering the job market to find out like, should I lean into this? Is this? Is this job even going to be here? Or is my role going to change dramatically? You know, what, which are the skill sets that I should be leaning into? So I think you've got, you've got good insights there about about that transitory or transient nature of work.
Graham Allcott 15:26
So let's talk about some practicalities. And what I loved in the book was all the little sort of flow diagrams and scripts and really practical detail that I think will just really help people, you know, if you're preparing for, you know, conversation that feels like it's going to be difficult, or you just really want to make it as good as it can be. I think there's just some really just useful, practical little nuggets there that people will take away. And.
Therese Huston 15:54
Thank you.
Graham Allcott 15:54
Just before we talk about some of those, I love the bit where you talk about this kind of like three different views of what feedback should be. Right. And so I just thought that was a really interesting insight in you know, in that there's been kind of almost like disagreements and, and just differing views on how to give feedback and the kind of feedback that really makes a difference. So do you want to talk about those three different different views?
Therese Huston 16:19
Yeah, sure. So there's a in the United States, there's one view that's particularly big and i think i think it's big there in the UK as well. Radical candor. Has that book done? Well, there? Yeah. So So Kim Scott, the takes the radical candor perspective, that's the name of her book. And that came out in 2017. That's been a big, you know, she her to her two mantras are care personally, and challenge directly, right. And so she's she is all about, you know, you need to care about the person, but you still need to challenge them, and you need to challenge them directly. So she's, she's in one camp. And then there's Ray Dalio, the CEO of Bridgewater, which is a financial services company. And he's in a very similar camp. He's he's about challenging directly.
Graham Allcott 17:12
Just with a bit less of the care maybe.
Therese Huston 17:14
There's a little less care, I think. He does not emphasize that you're so right.
Graham Allcott 17:20
You had Daniel Scrivener on the podcast recently, who is the chief designer at square, and we got on to a really interesting conversation where he started his career at Bridgewater and was basically telling me about just some horrendous experiences of the way he was managed and just didn't want to, to manage other people like that.
Therese Huston 17:42
Oh, it's rough. I interviewed I interviewed one person for my book for for Bridgewater, from Bridgewater. And the reason that I approached him was I can tell a quick story. He was he was someone who he was at a he was under a big tent, they were having a big all hands meeting for his division. And it was all the other managers, I can't remember the number let's let's just say it was like 200 different managers. So it's a big group. And someone's presenting a PowerPoint deck. And they said, Here were the bottom 10 managers for our division. And they listed their names. And the guy that I interviewed was listed as the worst manager in the entire division. There's his name up there. Can you imagine? Oh, my goodness. I mean, I know the UK in the US differ in terms of you know, how direct we might be but but still, that that is out there for the US to say that you're the worst manager in the company. Right. And in any case, that that that captures some of Bridgewater Ray Dalio is not that Ray Dalio did that, but it but it captures some of the mentality of like, you got to be brutally honest with people. So he's in that camp. He's very much about the challenging directly, sorry, we're gonna say something
Graham Allcott 18:58
I was just gonna say. brutally honest. I think is it that as well as being brutally honest, it's about being brutal like that. It feels like there's something in the culture at Bridgewater, which really values helping people to grow a thick skin in inverted commas, right? And so it's like, you need to be really tough. So we're gonna make it tough for you, and you need to survive. And, and then there's, you know, I guess an element of people who would just naturally leave from that environment, and then they're left with the ones who they think are tougher. Do you think that?
Therese Huston 19:30
Yeah, it could, it could. It could very well be, you know, that. It's, it's not at least described. I haven't worked there. But what I've read about it, it's not described as you know, there's, there's value in having a tough skin, but it's described, at least the way that it's sold publicly, is we want to figure out whose opinions are worth listening to. And because because we want to be savvy in our decision making. We want to let people know what they're good at and what they're bad at. So that we're always sorting people. You know, if I need to talk with someone who's really creative who's the most creative person on the team, I can go and find out I can see it publicly publicly within Bridgewater. So it's sold as this is a way that we we call who's good at what? so that we don't waste any time. Right. There's kind of an efficient efficiency element.
Graham Allcott 20:21
So you've got the the Ray Dalio approach. You've got radical candor. And then third one.
Therese Huston 20:25
The third one, Marcus Buckingham, and I'm forgetting his co author right now. But they've written a book called nine lies about work.
Graham Allcott 20:32
Somebody Goodall.
Therese Huston 20:33
Goodall Yes, yeah. Leslie Goodall, thank you. Thanks for that help, I appreciate it. And they've written a book called nine lies about work. And one of their key lies that they believe that we tell the work is that people need to hear the critical stuff, they are there, they're in the camp, that people just need praise. The people are mostly need praise, they need it in so much higher proportion. And they they're their observation is that if we're focused on what people do poorly, we're bringing someone who's a zero, maybe up to a five, but what we should really be focusing on what they do well, what they're at a five now, so let's bring them up to a 10. Yeah. And I can see the wisdom in that, right. But on the other hand, just because something's someone's bad at something, doesn't mean they can't ever they can just avoid that part of their job, right? You know, if you've got if you've got, if you've got a small team, you need certain, you know, you need certain people to be doing the undesirable tasks, or the tasks that no one's good at yet, but someone needs to get good at them. So those are, those are kind of the three camps. You got the radical candor care personally, and challenge directly. You've got Ray Dalio, who's, who's he his phrase is radical transparency, we're gonna be super transparent about what everyone's strengths are and what their weaknesses are. And then you got the Goodall and Buckingham approach, which is praise, Praise, praise, we need more praise.
Graham Allcott 21:55
So out of those three.
Therese Huston 21:57
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 21:57
Which would you say is the one that you would naturally gravitate to the most?
Therese Huston 22:01
I gravitate most towards Kim Scott to you the the challenge directly and care personally, the the hesitation that I have with with her approach is that we can fool ourselves into thinking that we're caring personally, when perhaps that's not how the other person experiences it. She, in her book, and in some of the talks that I've seen her give, she's very much focused on what's your intention as a manager, and if you have good intentions, that's what matters. I don't know if you've ever been on the receiving end of feedback, where there was a good intention, and it still didn't land. Well, you know, that story, the story I shared at the beginning with my boss in the loo where she was, she probably had good intentions, but oh, my goodness, right. It was was not when I wanted to hear it. So so that's a concern for me. And there's there's also research out there showing that about 90% of us think that we have high emotional intelligence, when actually it's much more like 10%. Right. So there's, there are a whole bunch of us who think that we're very good at at reading the other person's perspective, how are they taking this, when the truth is that we're not as good as we think we are. And so that's the concern I have about her approach is that we, you know, that people are getting away with, you know, what I mean? Well, as long as I mean, Well, isn't that isn't that enough? I'm trying, I'm trying to care. And my book takes more of an approach of, Okay, here's what caring looks like, here's, here's what caring is going to feel like to the other person. Here's how here's strategies you can take, it's not enough just to come at it from a good intention.
Graham Allcott 23:37
Yeah. And you talk about a similar stat, where it's it's a very high number of people who believe they have high levels of self awareness. And then actually the number the number is very low.
Therese Huston 23:48
But yes.
Graham Allcott 23:48
So I think that that's that's like the floor of radical candor, I guess is that a lot of people would, would believe that they themselves would be really good at that approach and have high levels of EQ.
Therese Huston 24:03
Yes, exactly.
Graham Allcott 24:04
The stats just don't bear that out. Right. Like so many of us feel like we're good at that. But maybe we're not.
Therese Huston 24:09
Exactly. And and i'd love radical candor. And I think I you know, I've talked with a lot of managers who've embraced it. And I think part of what is so appealing about it is it's an identity issue, right? For so many of us, if you're a manager, you feel like you can't say the hard stuff. And Kim Scott in radical candor is giving people permission to say the hard stuff. She's trying to help. How do you say the hard stuff? And I'm trying to leave even further into that how, you know, what's the mindset around saying in the hard stuff?
Graham Allcott 24:37
And so should we talk about the different kinds of feedback? So I found that really interesting, because I think I've probably thought about it before, as there's one thing which is called giving feedback, right?
Therese Huston 24:53
Yes.
Graham Allcott 24:53
Right. And then you break it down into and maybe part of that is the whole kind of The kind of shit sandwich model, right?
Therese Huston 25:03
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 25:03
So feedback is all about giving the, the the negative stuff as well as the positive positive stuff and kind of mixing it all together. But you break it down into appreciation, coaching and evaluation. So do you want to just say a bit more about the distinction between those things? Because I still I was pretty fascinating.
Therese Huston 25:19
Oh, good, I'm glad. So I get that distinction. That's I didn't create that a new that actually comes from Douglas stone. And Sheila Hien. They're authors of a book called thanks for the feedback, which is a great book came out about a decade ago about how to be better at receiving feedback when you're on the receiving end.
Graham Allcott 25:34
Right.
Therese Huston 25:36
And so that's a good book, if you're someone who has a boss who's lousy at giving feedback, and you're trying to figure out how do I how do I? How do I think about this differently? And so so the three types as you as you outlined, there's appreciation, which most of us would think of is praise, recognition. You know, it's what you're doing well, and how you're having impact. It's the thing I want you to keep doing, Graham, whatever it is, that's, that's my appreciation, what I want you to keep doing. And then there's coaching, which would be advice, or, you know, here's, here's the direction, I'd love to see you move in or here's, here's a way I'd like you to approach things differently. And then there's evaluation and evaluation is, here's where you stand. So evaluation might be, here's our, you know, are you on track to get that promotion that we talked about? Or evaluation might be okay, compared to other people on the team? You know, your presentations are there, they're there the right length of time, but they're not as engaging as some of the other presentations for people on the team. So it's letting people know where they stand relative to others, or relative to the goals they have.
Graham Allcott 26:42
Right.
Therese Huston 26:43
So those Yeah, those are the three types. And I find it, it's really helpful, because often people there's often a mismatch, somebody says, I want feedback. And their boss, their manager will give them like, like, attagirl! You're doing great. Don't worry about it. So they give them they give them recognition. And they're like, no, what I really want some coaching now, but you don't have the language for it. Right? So what I like about this turns as it allows us to get more specific, when we're asking for feedback to say, you know, actually, I need to know where I stand. Can you give me an evaluation? The coaching is nice, but I've had enough of that I need, I need to know, am I am I on track for that promotion in July?
Graham Allcott 27:21
That's a really nice tip, isn't it? So if you're talking to your manager about about seeking feedback is just don't don't say give me feedback, be more specific and ask for the one of those three things that you do most need.
Therese Huston 27:34
Exactly right. And there's there's fabulous research out of a team juyuan urine out of Harvard. One of the things that she has found is just there's one, if there's one more that can make a huge difference. And that is do you ask for feedback? Or do you ask for advice? And if they've done studies in real workplaces, where when people ask for feedback, people are like to say, you did a great presentation, it was fine, you know, no complaints. But if they ask for Can you give me advice on my presentation, and now people will say actually, you needed to move around a little bit more. He kind of stood in one place, or you know, there were two VPS in the room, if you had called on them, we would have been felt that that this was, you know, authorized by the head honchos. So it's really interesting, just that small word difference feedback versus advice. So I underline that point, because it really can make a difference with your manager. You know, first of all, ask for advice. Don't ask for feedback. But second, secondly, if you ask you, if you let them know, I need to know where I stand, can you give me? Well, I interviewed one manager, who has the conversation once a month with his boss, he goes to his boss once a month and says, am I on track for that promotion a year from now? If not, what do you need to see from me? And I, you know, I find that amazing that he has that conversation once a month, but he wants he wants to make sure I'm counting on it if you're not seeing what you need to see. Plus, it puts the thought in his manager's mind that like, you can't surprise me here. Like.
Graham Allcott 29:05
This person's really hungry. And I've been telling them for three years that they're on track for the promotion, so I better give them money.
Therese Huston 29:12
Exactly. Exactly. And you I'm giving you every opportunity to let me know if that's not coming through.
Graham Allcott 29:16
Yeah, that's, that's that's a pretty focused approach.
Therese Huston 29:19
It really is. It's bold. And it's kind of funny because I sometimes find gender differences in the reaction to that story. Men are often like, Oh, interesting. I, I'm gonna try that. Like, no way would I ever!
Graham Allcott 29:33
I think I would, I would find it a little bit icky to take that approach.
Therese Huston 29:39
You mean? You mean as the person asking for it or the person receiving it?
Graham Allcott 29:42
I think both. I think I would struggle with asking that directly and that regularly. And I think if someone was doing that to me and asking that of me. I think I would just I think it would be I would recoil a little bit. And I think I'd just be thinking, give me a break here. Like, we just had this conversation three weeks ago, we're having it again. You know, I don't know, whether, you know whether we'll have a roll in the next six months or whatever, there's that.
Therese Huston 30:14
Right.
Graham Allcott 30:14
You know, there's there's so many other unknowns that that feed into that. So I just, I wonder whether it might sometimes be too focused or backfire?
Therese Huston 30:22
And yeah, well, I that's really interesting, you know, it could backfire. And I think probably in part, you need to be reading your organization, you need to be reading your manager.
Graham Allcott 30:31
Yeah.
Therese Huston 30:32
There are definitely downsides to that approach. I know, I, when I think about some of my employees, if they had done this, I probably would have been given the feedback. Like, there's so many things I can't control about the nursing process, like, but but in the in the case of the person that I'm describing, he got a promotion every year for three years in a row. Right? So for him, for him, it was it was a winning strategy.
Graham Allcott 30:55
Yeah. We'll talk a bit more about gender a bit later, as well, because I think that's a really interesting component of this, then, but let's just talk about listening as well. And you give lots of tips in the book, but just for anyone listening to this, what do you think are some of the main ways that you can be a better listener when you're, when you're trying to give receive feedback?
Therese Huston 31:17
Well, you know, I know from your work on how to be a productivity Ninja, that you're very focused on mindset. And there's, there are definitely mindsets around listening that can really help you. So all too often we go into feedback conversations with a little script, I got these things, I need to I'm going to say, I want to say it this way, I practiced it at home in the mirror, you know, on my commute into work. But But what the research shows is that what people want most is a really good listener, when they're receiving feedback, they want the other person to be listening, not just telling them things. And so in terms of strategies for listening, one that I really like, is make give yourself two goals when you go into a conversation, any kind of conversation because it's good to practice listening in. And it's a skill, you know, we can use across different situations. But to two strategies that I really liked for thinking about how to be a better listener, is, first of all, can I win the conversations done? Can I say what was most important to that person? And number two, that's number one, can I say what was most important? And number two? Can I say how this person felt about the conversation? Right? Can I can I say how they felt about what they were talking about that were they excited? Were they dreading something, were they ambivalent, whatever it might be. But if you can say those two things, you can say what was most important to the person and how they felt about it, you're on your way to becoming a really good listener. And it's something you can practice with your partner at home tonight, right? Or with with a friend, it's it's surprisingly hard to do. But if you go into a conversation with those two goals, you're going to become a much better listener. And you'll be much better at feedback, because you're now tuned into, okay, what is most important to this person, you know, that they've been missing deadlines? I'm trying to understand why that's happening. Why do they think what what do they see as important in this conversation?
Graham Allcott 33:12
That's lovely, just such a nice mindset to go into things with. The other one I really liked as a little device in the practice section of the book is, stop asking questions that start with the word why, and then flip it around into questions that are about what? So do you want to say a bit more about that? Because I just thought that was such a useful little tip and trick that is one of those memorable things that you can take away, isn't it?
Therese Huston 33:40
It is, it really is. People people get defensive. When they when you ask a why question, you know, so if, if, if I were to, you know, ask you like, you know, you happen to be wearing a blue shirt, so Dan white, why the blue today? You're just like, what's wrong with blue? Right? Right, exactly. But why why immediately, and if you get the tone slightly wrong, it puts people in a defensive, you know, they're on their back heels. And so just re reframing it as a what question so one that I really like is or a how question, how does that help you achieve what you want? Or, you know, what was your goal there? That's instead of why did you do that? What was your goal there? Or how does that achieve what you want? And it's, it's, it's more wordy, but it won't put people on the defensive. I I do it a lot in my consultations, and you ask people like how does that achieve what you want, they they go into their goals? And now now you understand, okay, if that's your goal, here's a different way to get there. It's the longer route but it's going to be so much more effective for you.
Graham Allcott 34:43
The discussion becomes about their goals. Right? So right then you having a hole. Okay, cool. So if that's your goal, then I suggest we work in this way. So you're having the conversation more on their terms than on your terms.
Therese Huston 34:56
Exactly. Right. And, and, and people people want you to meet them where they're going. are right, as opposed to, if you're giving the feedback that you did something wrong, it's still it seems like now it's about you. My issue is not about the issues that are important to the person you're getting the feedback to. So Exactly, yeah. Make it about their goals.
Graham Allcott 35:13
Yeah. I love that. And you use the example in the book, what were you hoping would happen, which I think is just a really good question. Like, particularly if the feedback relates to, you know, a situation or event where something didn't go so well, like, what happened? And how did you think that it went? And so not say, why did you behave in that way?
Therese Huston 35:32
Why on earth? Right, right. Yeah. What What were you hoping What happened? Because that is also a beautiful question, because it gives you insight into how self aware that person is, right? We talked about self awareness earlier. Is that is that person really aware of? Do they have situational awareness? Do they know the impact they have on others, where they're where their expectations really unrealistic? You know, they thought the VP was going to stand up and applaud the talk. Like Okay, okay. They the VP never does that. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, it's an it's a nice question, to get a sense to get a read on how thoughtful and aware the other person is.
Graham Allcott 36:11
Just before we move off that topic area, because it does feel so important that that whole area of, of, you know, empathy, emotional intelligence, listening, so central to feedback, that personal connection, is there anything else you think would be useful for people to take away just as, you know, devices or just tips that can really help people to be more present be more in the conversation connectable?
Therese Huston 36:36
Yeah, I think the one other tip, and I appreciate your you're not asking me for like a three step formula, because I don't find that. Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. It's so like, oh, if I were to, if I had a reductionist approach, what would I do, but you know, but one, so there is one more tip that I find, even even I will forget to do, but it makes such a difference when I remember to do it. And that is, to state my good intentions. When I'm giving someone either coaching or evaluation, when you're giving appreciation, you're letting someone know what you love about their work. You know, when I'm telling you what I love about your podcast, I probably don't need to say, you know what my good intentions are. But it when you're giving coaching or evaluation, when you're when you're giving someone advice, or you're letting them know where you where they stand, it's important to say, you know, I, I, I want to see you do your best work, you know, I want to see you succeed, you know, Graham, I see you putting all this work into this podcast. And I want to help you get where you want to go. And it's, it might sound artificial, but to the other person. Now they're like these, again, we get back to this question of recognizing my goals, and the other person will be there's there's research from Leslie john at Harvard Business School, showing that if you state your good intentions, before you give bad news, the other person is much more receptive to the bad news to the bad news. So it's a small thing, it's easy to forget. But when you do it, the other person, you'll see them relax and be much more open.
Graham Allcott 38:03
I am definitely guilty of neglecting that one, I would say. And the other one I do quite a lot is when you're giving feedback on email and stuff is launched straight in with the one tiny detail that's wrong about this thing rather than, you know, actually 99% of this is brilliant, you know, but like, in my mind, it's like, cool. That's brilliant. So here's the bit that if you particularly if you're in that busy, kind of mode and email, you don't have the person in front of you. So you there's just that connection. It's really easy. I think I probably that's probably one of the main sources of frustrations of people working with me probably is that sort of, you know, pernickety change this tiny thing. And email back from me, right?
Therese Huston 38:49
Yeah, well, and I can't remember the data on this. But I've seen studies that we also have many more critical adjectives, we have more negative attitudes than we have positive attitudes, you know. So it's really easy to be to just say, Well, that was good. That was fine. That was great work. But then then we get into very specific details about, you know, this, this was too wordy, or you know, whatever it might be, right. But we have we have much more language about what was wrong than we do about what was right. So we really need to counteract that negativity bias.
Graham Allcott 39:21
And then the other thing about adjectives, let's talk about the gender adjectives thing. Yeah. So it's a nice little little segue there a little podcast segue.
Therese Huston 39:29
Very nicely done.
Graham Allcott 39:30
So was this a Harvard study, but it basically it basically found that there are certain adjectives that people would use in feedback to describe female leaders, and then a whole nother set of adjectives that people would use about predominantly about male leaders.
Therese Huston 39:44
Yeah, yeah. So there was a study done at Harvard, I think it was through the Kennedy School for public policy, but they they analyzed actual performance reviews, and they're, they're also been studies done in the military. there been a couple of studies like this, where they find that different attitudes are used for men and women. And the adjectives that are used more frequently for women. So there are some adjectives that that that are used across both men and women, right? In terms of like, you know, this is excellent work, or your, you contribute in important ways. So there are certain phrases or language intelligent, that's used for both men and women. But then when we look at the additives that are used more predominantly for women, or more predominantly for men, it's really fascinating the patterns. So for women, they'll be comments about how kind you are, how compassionate you are, how helpful you are really focusing on a lot of gender stereotypes around being likable and nice and nurturing.
Graham Allcott 40:45
I thought enthusiastic was an interesting one.
Therese Huston 40:47
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm surprised by that, too. Because in there's other research that shows at least when professors are being described, men, male professors are more likely to be described as enthusiastic. So there's just, maybe it depends on the field that you're in. But anyway, kind, compassionate, focusing a lot on helpfulness. Oh, helpful. Yeah. Whereas, you know, get ready for it. What are the adjectives for men there things like game changer, visionary, innovative. And when you think about who you want to promote, you know, in any job do you do you want to promote the person who's compassionate and helpful, or the person who's a visionary game changer, I mean, if, you know, maybe there are some jobs, maybe maybe if you're doing nursing, you want the kind, compassionate person.
Graham Allcott 41:36
In a room full of geniuses, when, you.
Therese Huston 41:39
know, I, you know, I have had so many good nurses, of course, I want them to be geniuses, but I mostly want them to be helpful and kind, right. Um, but But in any case, when you think about who's going to stand out as management material, it's, it's probably more likely to be the innovative person, or these adjectives that we're using for men, not for women. And I find that work fascinating, because that's an inadvertent slip that so many of us could make and, and pointing it out, one of the things I suggest in the book is, you know, if you're a manager, close your door, get out your performance reviews from last year and look for these words, you know, did you did you make these mistakes for men and women?
Graham Allcott 42:16
Yeah, I was having a conversation with someone a little while ago about the word genius and how it's so often, you know, people will refer to men as as a genius. And it's not a word that you hear a lot of women described as, and it's sort of colored letters culturally, and I've never really noticed it before. And one thing was, a few weeks later, I was in my friend's whatsapp group. And I was talking about the lyrics of a female songwriter. And I was like, genius. And the first thing back, was someone questioning Oh, no, it's just that's just a really obvious lyric. And I was like, wow, I really have just not even considered that as being a kind of, you know, gender bias. thing. But yeah, yeah. Fascinating.
Therese Huston 43:03
It is fascinating. And there, you know, it's interesting there, I can't remember where the study was done now. But there was a study looking at different academic disciplines that tend to be more male and female dominated. And, you know, we tend to think of men are more likely, or at least more likely to have careers in science and women more likely to have careers in the humanities. But what's fascinating is, there are certain fields like philosophy where men are much more common, even though that's in humanities, but philosophy, like physics, like software, engineering, a couple of different areas where we think people have to be genius to do it, right. Whereas women are less likely to go into these careers that are described as genius. People, I'm not saying that you're not a genius, if you go into social sciences, but it's not a word that's associated with that. Whereas genius is associated with more male dominated fields.
Graham Allcott 43:57
Interesting. And you you talk about a thing called the Harvard Implicit Association test. So this is a way that you can basically check for unconscious biases, is it it's not just around gender? Is that is that a much wider?
Therese Huston 44:16
Yeah.
Graham Allcott 44:17
Just bias test as well.
Therese Huston 44:18
It's much wider. Have you ever taken one?
Graham Allcott 44:20
I've never done it. But I saw I wrote it down today, because I was thinking I'm gonna I'm gonna do that.
Therese Huston 44:24
Yeah, yeah. You know, when you've got some free time, you know, they take about 10 minutes. But they do have them across a variety. So I'm not associated with Harvard at all on this. So but it is a free test. And your data would go into their data banks, and but they let you know that if you want to do it, but what's fabulous is they've got at least 10 different tests, where you can discover you basically need to take 10 minutes, but you're going to discover how biased you are relative to all the other people who've taken that test. And they've got hundreds of 1000s of people taking these and they'll give you your data at the end. You don't you know, you don't have to wait For the report, they give it to you right away that let you know where do you stand relative to other people? And they give you you know, you have options you can you can they've got a couple on gender bias. They've got a few on race. They've got them on how do you view Muslims? For instance? How do you view thin people versus heavy people? How do you view people who are fully abled versus people who have disabilities? So you can you get to pick ahead of time which of these things you want to do? And it's, you know, I got to say, I have taken a couple of them now. And there are some where I'm like, I can't be that bias. I'm gonna take it again. And what's beautiful is you can do it again, and then you get almost the same. No, no, you know, so I highly recommend it. It's a very humbling experience.
Graham Allcott 45:44
Yeah, in in my book, studying, enjoy, I researched and listed a number of different biases, and I come aboard, it's called, but there is a bias, which basically says, even when you are aware of biases, you will still be biased. Even when you know you, you look at these things, and know that bias is something that 90% of people have, and you know that you have biases, you will still then just do do things exactly the same.
Therese Huston 46:11
Yeah. You know, I really like there's a, she used to be Chair of the psychology department, her name is banaji. She has this great analogy that I really like around unconscious bias. Her observation is exactly what you're saying that just because you know about unconscious bias doesn't mean you're free from it. She said, you know, there's this unrealistic expectation that if we learned about unconscious bias, it will go away. Well, we will now be more enlightened, and we won't have unconscious bias, she said, but that's like expecting that if you go to a talk on how we burn calories, and how we burn fat, that you'll suddenly like lose weight. Right? Yeah, you know, just just because you understand how it works doesn't mean that your internal machinery has changed. It just means you're now aware of it. But you still need to take extra steps for any change to happen.
Graham Allcott 47:01
Yeah, we've had a big problem in well, there's a couple of big problems in our big political parties here, where, and I'm saying that for balance, the one that the media covers all the time is the Labour Party having a big problem with anti semitism, actually, the Conservative Party have an equally big problem with Islamophobia. But the media just don't talk about that. I wonder, I wonder who funds the media?
Therese Huston 47:24
Exactly.
Graham Allcott 47:25
The Labour leader recently was being interviewed about this review into anti semitism. And he is on a big campaign, the current Labour leader to really stamp it out. And I think, to his credit, has taken some quite, he's taken some, some quite big action. And, you know, in order to try and make the point that he is on this crusade to, to sort of stamp out, you know, anti semitism, but also other, you know, racism or biases within the party. And someone asked him, oh, what actually taking internally and he said, Oh, everybody internally has been on this unconscious bias training. And the interviewer said, How long was the training? And he was like, well, it was two hours. And he was like, do you think that you just everything's fixed? If everyone just goes on a course, for two hours, you know, so there is, there is a sense where that needs to be the starting point, rather than the end point.
Therese Huston 48:22
Exactly. Right. It's,
Graham Allcott 48:23
It was quite funny. It was a funny moment, the question I managed to uncover,
Therese Huston 48:29
I really, I really liked that reality test, two hours, two hours.
Graham Allcott 48:32
And we've got about 10 minutes left. And I'd love to just talk to you more about the work that you do. So you the you were the founding director of something called the Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning at Seattle University. So I'd love to just know about how that came about. And what do you do at the Center for Excellence in Teaching?
Therese Huston 48:55
Sure. Well, you know, I have so much admiration there in the UK, you take higher education. And, you know, we take higher education seriously here, but there, you really take it seriously about university professors and making sure that they're good at their work, and you take it more seriously than we do. But I got into I used to be a university professor for the beginning of my career. And I realized I wanted to, I wanted to think about how do you help other professors get good at their jobs? How do you go from how do I how can I help people go from being a good professor, to being your favorite professor? And because, yeah, you know, it's it's one thing to be good for the 30 or 50 students in your class. It's another thing to help professors across the university get good at what they do. And and their jobs like that. And so I, I moved into that line of work. In the US, it's called faculty development in I think in the UK, it's called Higher Education Development. And basically what that work involves is I sit down with faculty with university professors all the time, and sometimes they're in law, sometimes they're in nursing, sometimes they're in philosophy across the university, and I work with them to figure out how can they teach better. And so that involves a lot of feedback. I've been doing that since about 2000. So I've had about 20 years now of giving a lot of feedback, to help those professors be smarter in their classrooms. And some of those conversations are easy and wonderful. And some of them are hard because a person is seeking feedback, but they don't really want it. We've all been there, we think we want to know, but we don't once we hear it. Anyway, and it's fabulous work, I really, it's very fulfilling. And I've, I've had a chance to see some professors really go from being average to exceptional and I feel really lucky to be part of that work.
Graham Allcott 50:49
Sounds like one of those jobs where there would always be more to do and your relationship with busy. Might be a tricky one. So just tell us about that. And you know, how you manage your relationship with busy.
Therese Huston 51:04
No, you're right. And that and that is that is that is managing your relationship with busy, what a wonderful way to put it, it it is work where there's always more to do and the better you are at your job, the more people seek you out. And so um, you know, getting good at the job has its has complicated consequences, definitely
Graham Allcott 51:24
professional dilemmas, and so on.
Therese Huston 51:27
Exactly, you know, and I think for me, a part of that job was to figure out which parts of the job I enjoy most Can I carve the work out so that I'm getting to do the parts of the work that I enjoy most, I enjoy research and writing, and I enjoy working one on one with people. That's that my favorite part of the job? As founding director, I was also pulled into meetings you want to show off if you're building a new library, you want to have the director of teaching and learning there, right? Even if that's just someone who's nodding along it at the table. And so I tried to move out of fewer of those, basically, where I was just a token in the room,
Graham Allcott 52:03
See what like the Lord Mayor of Seattle? You.
Therese Huston 52:05
Know, no, hardly, but I was maybe the lawyer, Lord Mayor of teaching and learning, at least how it was learned how it was viewed. So I really enjoy that work. And but the but the productivity for me in terms of productivity tips, right? For me, setting aside large blocks of time whenever I can get them to write and figuring out for me when my best time is for certain tasks. So I try to do meetings in the morning, and my writing and research in the afternoon. Because I find that from I do my best I do my best writing from three to six that those words work on the page the first time. Whereas if I try to write at nine in the morning, or 10 in the morning, I'm rewriting and rewriting. I, I'm not sure that my meetings are my best in the morning, but they don't seem to suffer nearly as much as my writing does. So for me, is that something that you find you dial in certain times of the day?
Graham Allcott 53:00
Yeah, I do exactly the same in principle, but exactly the opposite in practice to you. So my mornings are my I label as the Create time, my morning time is the writing. And then the afternoon time is the meetings. And yeah, so we're kindred spirits in our sports teams, and then actually polar opposites in terms of which times of the day work best for writing. But then I find that with having to make those choices and compromises, like you say, I think I'd rather a meeting go from being 100% of what it could be to being 90%. Because actually, usually 90% of a meeting is good enough. Whereas with writing, there's such a difference between when you feel 100% on your game, and when you feel at 90% it's like, the difference is so huge. And I think, for me sometimes, you know, I don't know if you get this, but I sometimes feel a bit guilty if I'm, if if I know people need time in my diary, and I'm, you know, steadfastly defending my time boundaries around, you know, when I need that writing time, I feel really guilty about that. But it is so important, isn't it when you've got something like writing that, you know, you do just need to prioritize your energy for.
Therese Huston 54:15
You do you do and for me, at least, you know, when I think about some of the least successful feedback conversations that I've had, where I've had a meeting with someone, it's often a mistake that I'm making, I'm having it at 4pm in the afternoon. And I'm tired, and this person needs me to be a great listener. And instead, instead, they're just sucking out all of my energy. And so I'm not able to be because I'm not coming into it fresh. And so I do think that I'm doing people a favor by saying, you know, I need to have my meetings done by three if at all possible if they if their meetings that matter. Again, if I'm just a token head in the room, I can I can do that at three o'clock or four o'clock. But in terms of my actually being able to give good feedback and be the kind of listener you expect to show up, I'm going to do that better earlier in the day. So, so I do think, but I know that there are probably some of your listeners who think, gosh, Teresa, that's a luxury. I don't I don't get to set my agenda. All right, I get to set my schedule, the way that I that your sounds like you do. So I, you know, I think trying to find ways to take control of your time is so important.
Graham Allcott 55:25
Yes. And I think that's a sliding scale. Right. So we probably both have quite a high level of autonomy over our time, but I would say that everybody has some level of, even if that's an hour a day or half an hour of your day that you can control yourself.
Therese Huston 55:41
Right, right.
Graham Allcott 55:42
What you do with that, and how, you know, how you how you try and organize that, you know, that can make a huge difference, right?
Therese Huston 55:48
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And to communicate that, you know, to, to the people to your boss, to say, you know, if I can have my first two hours of my day to work on my reports, or I can spend my first two hours getting that data done, I'm going to be so much more effective at what you need me to do for the rest of the day. Often, bosses are like, okay, well, if you figured that out, let's try it, right. And people can be more receptive to that if you can articulate it.
Graham Allcott 56:16
And final question for you, which is, I often describe productivity ninja the book as like a rod for my own back, because then it becomes, oh, Graham has to be productive all the time. So do you feel like with this book, and obviously your your work around feedback? Do you feel like it creates a rod for your own back where you're never allowed to be the person who gives bad feedback or, or isn't on top of your game when it comes to those things?
Therese Huston 56:45
Well, I you know, I don't know if this happens for you that the key hesitation I had when I was going to write this book at the beginning, was I was dreading those moments where I'll be giving a talk, and someone will have a question. And basically, they're going to present to you their very hardest feedback situation ever. You do, right? And I was dreading that I was just like all these you know, people, it's gonna come out of the woodwork the hardest of all the possible feedback situations. So there's, for me, there's that concern is that I'm going to get all these questions that where people try to stump me, you know, try to stump the feedback ever. But but I usually find that it's hard to you know, we can't be an armchair feedback ever. You can't just like slide in and say, here's what you need to do and slide back out. Right. But usually, there's a relationship. Is there a good relationship or there's not a good relationship? Have I have I been giving you recognition and appreciation all along? So now you're, you're comfortable hearing where you stand, and it's not quite where you need to be. So anyway, I really like I really like the way that you frame. You know, what do you want to get good at? Because people are gonna expect you to be good at it.
Graham Allcott 57:53
Yeah. Yeah,
indeed. Yeah. And, and with me, my next books about kindness, I kind of feel like not only do I have to be on time to everything now, but I have to be super kind in every situation in my life. So what am I doing? stressful, isn't it?
Therese Huston 58:13
It's gonna get stressful. You're gonna have two hours a day where you interact with the world, you know, that's it.
Graham Allcott 58:17
Yeah,
Therese Huston 58:18
yeah.
Graham Allcott 58:19
Well, it's been lovely having you on beyond busy. And before we go, do you want to just tell people where they can connect with you and find out more about your work? And.
Therese Huston 58:28
Yeah, sure you so you can find me at Therese houston.com. And I'm sure grandma put my name in the podcast notes. You'll see how to spell that. And and then my book is being published in the UK by Penguin Random House, so you'll be able to find it at your favorite bookseller. And I'd love for you to pick it up and let me know why you might you can email me my emails on my website. And I'd love to hear what parts of the book work for you and what parts don't.
Graham Allcott 58:53
And presumably, you'll be reading all of the feedback that comes in the form of Amazon reviews, right?
Therese Huston 58:58
Exactly. Yes. You know, I probably skipped the reviews where people say, you know, it didn't ship on time right. I'll skip those but I pay it pay attention to the others. I'm I'm true to my word. I love feedback.
Graham Allcott 59:10
Amazing. And Therese thanks so much for being on beyond busy.
Therese Huston 59:13
Oh, you're such a delight. Thank you Graham.
Graham Allcott 59:21
Really enjoyed that. And just before we finish, because my throat is absolutely just dying, so I'm not gonna do a big long spiel here, but I just have to give two thank yous before we finish. First is to Therese so she asked me at the end of our conversation if she could send me a thank you card and what was my dress? And I said, Oh, that'd be great because my Gran collect stamps and she loves getting the foreign stamps and so you know, when your card arrives, it's gonna be really great to have a nice picture stamp. And Therese kind of took that as a little challenge. He sent me this whole little envelope full of like picture stamps from the States with like, you know, there's some with like famous Screen Actors on There's some with really exotic looking birds on them and stuff, and just this whole array of different stamps. So I'm thrilled with it, and my grandpa's gonna love it. And that's really cool. So thank you to Therese for doing that. And you know what we don't get enough of that sort of, you know, physical mail and just like physical stuff, everything's so digital now that when you get them, they're just so exciting. So really nice to receive a lovely, thank you card, and stamps. And yeah, just really made my day when that arrived just a few days ago, actually. And the second Thank you is to my producer on the show, Mark Steadman. And this is actually the final episode that mark is going to be producing. And we're moving to a new producer who is part of our team. Riz Paredes who will be taking it over next week. And so this is like the end of a bit of an era really. So we've just passed our 100th episode. But Mark has been really at my side with this podcast from day one. And his platform Podiant is where we host the podcast as well. So literally everything from the format to the technical setup to the editing, like he's really just been such a mine of useful information, such a resource, such as support, and I've really loved working with him. So we will still be on Podiant. Mark will be putting his time into lots of other stuff. So is no longer going to be producing each of the episodes, but I'm sure will still be a friend and a fan of this podcast as well as a host obviously through Podiant as well. So just wanna say thank you, Mark, it's been amazing. Working with you, I know we will continue to you know, to work with each other and to send send people each other's direction and all that sort of stuff. But just want to say a massive thank you to, to Mark Steadman and everybody at Podiant. This episode is sponsored by Think Productive. So if you want productivity training and coaching, go to thinkproductive.com . And as always, you can get all the show notes or the links to previous episodes, including our three part beyond busy 100. It's all at getbeyondbusy.com. If you want to sign up for my weekly email is just go to Grahamallcott.com/links, and you'll find it on there amongst a few other things. And that's it, we got a huge guest next week. Seth Godin is our guest next week on Beyond busy so make sure you're subscribed and strap him for that one. It's a good one. We're talking about his book The practice. So until then, I hope you're keeping well. I'm gonna get myself better because my throat is killing me and I just feel awful. And I'm sure I'm sure that by next week, I'll be feeling a bit brighter than I probably sound here. So Take care. See you next week. Bye for now.